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Melted Piston or worse

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  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Hi team - 
    Long time member and value all imput and information previously from forum. Priceless..

    Sold my 2013 breakout 103 to my brother last year. I've previously upgraded 😁.

    Issue is - he however overfilled the oil on a service. Few to many beers while doing weekend jobs are his words. While riding into work at 5am the oil light came on, then started rounding rough and felt like it dropped a cylinder. He rode it to.the nearest pullover point being a service station. Its since been towed to my house.

    Pulled an extra 1L of oil from the oil tank. Rear cylinder spark plug electrode is 25% missing. He has a dynojet powervison tuner installed and operational. 

    We need to know what went wrong. No trustworthy dealer in the area. I myself am mechanically minded so feel as though I can handle this with your guidance. 

    Need a place to start. Pulled oil, pulled plugs. Data log the tuner while bike is running etc?? Only error code logged is front cylinder lean. 

    Thankyou in advance..
  • beaglebasher
    beaglebasher
    3 years ago
    Put two new plugs in it and see what happens. Could have been a dodgy plug.
  • HDGed
    HDGed
    3 years ago
    Quoting beaglebasher on 30 Jul 2021 09:57 AM

    Put two new plugs in it and see what happens. Could have been a dodgy plug.

    HJWawLk.gif
  • beaglebasher
    beaglebasher
    3 years ago
    What is so " gold " about that HDGed ?   He needs to start somewhere. 
    Overfilling the bike with oil isnt going to cause the spark plug to melt.
    The oil light coming on is a worry. I would get the oil level right, put in two new spark plugs and start the bike and see what happens.

  • HDGed
    HDGed
    3 years ago
    Quoting beaglebasher on 30 Jul 2021 10:41 AM

    What is so " gold " about that HDGed ?   He needs to start somewhere. 

    Overfilling the bike with oil isnt going to cause the spark plug to melt.
    The oil light coming on is a worry. I would get the oil level right, put in two new spark plugs and start the bike and see what happens.

    Well, before he starts stripping the barrels off in search of a melted piston, he should do as you say, just replace the plugs and see what happens. He might have mechanical knowledge, but a few wise words from someone in the trade could save him thousands (ie "gold, bubba"). Over filled oil happens but might not have anything to do with the plug fouling. Just a red-herring that might cost ya. - Of course, maybe I've just had a few beers after work. What the fuck do I know, but I thought "thats Gold Jerry' was funny.
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    3 years ago
    Without seeing the bike it is a bit hard to say.
    what do you mean by .... he over filled the oil?
    Like there is a few different meaning's, to me. One , bike could stand a while & oil could migrate from oil tank into engine case. a owner with no experience with a dry sump motor. they might think , OH NO it's used a lot of oil I'll top the tank up. In this type of case you have engine case almost full of oil, then oil tank full of oil. when you fire the motor up ( can be hard to turn motor over if too much oil in cases ) you will get the oil from engine cases pumped back into oil tank & I'd expect the oil tank filler top ( top & dip stick combo ) would get spat out by the oil that coming from motor & oil would spew out the oil tank. if motor was reved up, it is possible you could damage the motor. But you would need to have engine full with oil , for that to happen. mostly it just makes a big mess when oil spews out the oil tank. if it was me I would just drain the oil tank, then start motor & see if a lot of oil starts to pump back into oil tank, keeping an eye on oil tank level. shut motor off & check how much oil in tank. if with in range of dip stick guide. take it for a ride not going too hard, just get motor & oil warm. drain oil tank & put fresh oil in. see how it goes. personally I could not see this seizing a piston, would be a possible chance of crank pin slipping in flywheels & motor going out of whack. when that happens ( & I've seen that happen on twin cam's before. the motor is real hard to turn over.
    good luck.
  • robnicko
    robnicko
    3 years ago
    overfilling can cause oil to 'foam' which in turn could have lead to lower oil pressure causing the light to come on - drain & refill to half way on dipstick for starters
    Spark plug - any pictures of the plug?
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    3 years ago
    Quoting robnicko on 31 Jul 2021 03:15 AM

    overfilling can cause oil to 'foam' which in turn could have lead to lower oil pressure causing the light to come on - drain & refill to half way on dipstick for starters
    Spark plug - any pictures of the plug?

    robnicko , with Harleys , only thing that needs oil pressure , is the hydraulic lifters, so if they lost oil pressure, you would hear a lot of valve train clatter. the bottom end ( big end of rods ) has roller bearings, so no need of high oil pressure.
  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Ok - Only had time this morning to have a look at this bike. Firstly thank you for all input. Much appreciated.

    Attached is a picture of the old plugs plus the new plugs after 1min idle.  Rear plugs seem to have oil on them. 

    After running for 1min same error code came up front cylinder lean.

    Also alot of valvetrain chatter/light knocking (to my untrained ears)  couldn't see much oil swirling going on in the tank while idle and slight reving. Bikes idle was odd and doesn't sound right at all. 
    received_263010218583331.jpeg
  • beaglebasher
    beaglebasher
    3 years ago
    What did the oil light do?
  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Quoting beaglebasher on 01 Aug 2021 12:29 AM

    What did the oil light do?

    Oil light did not come on in the 60 seconds bike was running.
  • Soapbox2627
    Soapbox2627
    3 years ago
    could the front (both) injector need a clean, the rear plug might be the good one and you are reading it wrong??
  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Quoting Soapbox2627 on 01 Aug 2021 02:19 AM

    could the front (both) injector need a clean, the rear plug might be the good one and you are reading it wrong??

    Was thinking it could be an injector issue. I ran a log with the powervision while it idled I just have to export it or something. 

    The rear plug was definitely the one that is oily and burnt. Oil level is now between L and H

    There is still the issue of very loud valve train. I'm trying to narrow down the sound however it is difficult. I have a compression tester so I'll do that this afternoon. 
  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Just to update bike was ran again for approximately 1min. Started fine. Idled pretty well for 40seconds and reved fine. As time went on engine noise got louder and bike was losing power and idle was very poor. 

    Guess it has to be torn down. Wish I knew if it was just the top end.
  • beaglebasher
    beaglebasher
    3 years ago
    What did the compression test tell you?
    It might be worth finding out what the oil pressure is doing. 
  • Far Canal
    Far Canal
    3 years ago
    If I was you I would take the bike to someone who knows what they are doing.
    If there are no trustworthy dealers in your area you are not Robinson Carusoe. Perhaps you might like to tell us what general area you are from in case a member knows a good independent bike mechanic near you. Just assuming it needs a tear down seems like a bad place to start in my humble opinion.
  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Quoting Far Canal on 01 Aug 2021 07:34 AM

    If I was you I would take the bike to someone who knows what they are doing.
    If there are no trustworthy dealers in your area you are not Robinson Carusoe. Perhaps you might like to tell us what general area you are from in case a member knows a good independent bike mechanic near you. Just assuming it needs a tear down seems like a bad place to start in my humble opinion.

    Far Canal I guess that's where you and I are different. Id like to do as much as I can before proceeding to somebody who "knows what they are doing"  do you have any input at all with my current situation or just want to refer somebody to a mechanic.  I built a couple engines in the past and repair everything else I've came across in the past 15 years. I'm not here to justify myself just here for actual input and some things to go through before he proceeds to the next step. 
  • inmate
    inmate
    3 years ago
    Quoting beaglebasher on 01 Aug 2021 07:21 AM

    What did the compression test tell you?

    It might be worth finding out what the oil pressure is doing. 

    205psi rear cylinder and 209psi front. 
  • Far Canal
    Far Canal
    3 years ago
    Quoting Far Canal on 01 Aug 2021 07:34 AM

    If I was you I would take the bike to someone who knows what they are doing.
    If there are no trustworthy dealers in your area you are not Robinson Carusoe. Perhaps you might like to tell us what general area you are from in case a member knows a good independent bike mechanic near you. Just assuming it needs a tear down seems like a bad place to start in my humble opinion.

    Quoting inmate on 01 Aug 2021 07:59 AM

    Far Canal I guess that's where you and I are different. Id like to do as much as I can before proceeding to somebody who "knows what they are doing"  do you have any input at all with my current situation or just want to refer somebody to a mechanic.  I built a couple engines in the past and repair everything else I've came across in the past 15 years. I'm not here to justify myself just here for actual input and some things to go through before he proceeds to the next step. 

    I think we are different on all sorts of levels Inmate.
    Hope you get it sorted and let us know how you go.
  • steelo
    steelo
    3 years ago
    Quoting Far Canal on 01 Aug 2021 07:34 AM

    If I was you I would take the bike to someone who knows what they are doing.
    If there are no trustworthy dealers in your area you are not Robinson Carusoe. Perhaps you might like to tell us what general area you are from in case a member knows a good independent bike mechanic near you. Just assuming it needs a tear down seems like a bad place to start in my humble opinion.

    Quoting inmate on 01 Aug 2021 07:59 AM

    Far Canal I guess that's where you and I are different. Id like to do as much as I can before proceeding to somebody who "knows what they are doing"  do you have any input at all with my current situation or just want to refer somebody to a mechanic.  I built a couple engines in the past and repair everything else I've came across in the past 15 years. I'm not here to justify myself just here for actual input and some things to go through before he proceeds to the next step. 

    I'm completely with you IM. I'd be ready to injure myself.
    Mechanics (even the one's that don't know much) are still going to charge you $120+ /hr just to diagnose the issue. Pull down, parts and a rebuild even it nothing it wrong is going to be in the many hundreds. Major issues and you're going to be in the thousands. Indy's and dealers are flat out at the moment selling new and servicing bikes.
    I think we can draw comfort in the fact that the bike "runs" OK but deteriorates as it gets warmer.
    Pleased that the compression seems even although I don't know what a suitable compression is.
    I'm scratching my head as to what an oil overfill can do. I have heard of the oil frothing and some damage can be caused with the crank smashing into oil in a full sump.
    Let's do what BB says, try and get the oil level down and see if it's possible there are any metallic filings in the oil
    Replace all the spark plugs (one of those looks like its never fired and the other looks like its been doing all the work). (I think you did tell us which pair each was?) Can you be sure all are getting a spark
    Don't forget the back cylinder gets all the heat.
    Can you get hold of a borescope to look into the cylinders for scoring of the bores.
    Google the shit out of the issue, get on other more technical based HD forums. Magnum54 or one of the other lads will know a few.
    Don't despair. Your mates got some months before the riding season.
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