Melted Piston or worse

Topics

Melted Piston or worse

2/3

Wideglider
2 years ago

Quoting inmate on 01 Aug 2021 05:12 AM
Just to update bike was ran again for approximately 1min. Started fine. Idled pretty well for 40seconds and reved fine. As time went on engine noise got louder and bike was losing power and idle was very poor.

Guess it has to be torn down. Wish I knew if it was just the top end.

The initial suspected diagnosis of 'Melted Piston' - where did that come from?
What does "idle was very poor" mean? A continuous rev fluctuation, or low revs only or high revs only? Spluttering, almost stalling? Is it that one or both cylinders occasionally don't fire? Have you got an induction pickup to monitor if spark is happening on both cylinders at the right time?
Colour of exhaust smoke?
As other have suggested, drain oil & check for colour & any metal fragments & the 'overfilled oil' theory cause could be a red-herring.

Jay-Dee
2 years ago

What oil did your brother put in it, what filter? It seems a bit odd that this has happened after an oil change if it was ok before.

My thoughts are see if you can get hold of a mechanical oil pressure gauge, fit it and check the actual oil pressure. The factory softail manual that I have says minimum of 5psi at idle, 30 - 38 at 2000RPM and max of 50psi, standard of course. Potentially the bypass in the pump is sticking or something silly.

If you start it cold it may have just enough oil pressure with the cold oil to keep the light off and as it heats up and the oil loses viscosity the oil pressure is dropping but for the time you had it going not enough to trip the light again. If the lifters don't have enough oil pressure they could be bleeding down, getting noisy and losing camshaft profile possibly causing it to idle/run rough.

I would think that it would take longer than 40 - 50 seconds to develop decent oil temperature though depending on the oil in it, but maybe not. A mechanical gauge will tell the story accurately there.

And steelo, from what I can see re-reading some threads recently a whole bunch of Magnum's posts have been deleted. Either he has or somebody has done it for him so he might not be able to help here.

inmate
2 years ago

Quoting inmate on 01 Aug 2021 05:12 AM
Just to update bike was ran again for approximately 1min. Started fine. Idled pretty well for 40seconds and reved fine. As time went on engine noise got louder and bike was losing power and idle was very poor.

Guess it has to be torn down. Wish I knew if it was just the top end.

Quoting Wideglider on 01 Aug 2021 09:17 AMedited: 01 Aug 2021 09:18 AM
The initial suspected diagnosis of 'Melted Piston' - where did that come from?
What does "idle was very poor" mean? A continuous rev fluctuation, or low revs only or high revs only? Spluttering, almost stalling? Is it that one or both cylinders occasionally don't fire? Have you got an induction pickup to monitor if spark is happening on both cylinders at the right time?
Colour of exhaust smoke?
As other have suggested, drain oil & check for colour & any metal fragments & the 'overfilled oil' theory cause could be a red-herring.

The "Initial diagnosis of melted piston is a topic header"

As stated previously..the oil has been drained and checked for any obvious signs.

Poor idle - idles okay then almost dies then picks up and idles okay.. then almost dies. The engine noise is obviously of concern to me at the 60 second mark hence why I shut it off.

Pulling the heads and jugs is no issue. It obviously has damage. Its just trying to figure out how much and where it ended. And what caused it. So many things.

Another engine is 3k generally with a few km on it however if I can get away with an isolated issue and a 107 upgrade that would be good. I'm in no rush just trying to help out my bro.

steelo
2 years ago

Cheap borescope (I think colour 100odd$ from aldi) look at bores and piston surfaces

inmate
2 years ago

Quoting Jay-Dee on 01 Aug 2021 10:09 AM
What oil did your brother put in it, what filter? It seems a bit odd that this has happened after an oil change if it was ok before.

My thoughts are see if you can get hold of a mechanical oil pressure gauge, fit it and check the actual oil pressure. The factory softail manual that I have says minimum of 5psi at idle, 30 - 38 at 2000RPM and max of 50psi, standard of course. Potentially the bypass in the pump is sticking or something silly.

If you start it cold it may have just enough oil pressure with the cold oil to keep the light off and as it heats up and the oil loses viscosity the oil pressure is dropping but for the time you had it going not enough to trip the light again. If the lifters don't have enough oil pressure they could be bleeding down, getting noisy and losing camshaft profile possibly causing it to idle/run rough.

I would think that it would take longer than 40 - 50 seconds to develop decent oil temperature though depending on the oil in it, but maybe not. A mechanical gauge will tell the story accurately there.

And steelo, from what I can see re-reading some threads recently a whole bunch of Magnum's posts have been deleted. Either he has or somebody has done it for him so he might not be able to help here.

Thank you Jay-Dee

I'll get a hold of a mechanical gauge, I'll remove the sensor and place it there... any bits of advice is fine so much appreciated.

20/60 penrite I think he said and genuine filter. The bike is now at my place in Brisbane. No rush here if just like to get to the bottom of it myself.

inmate
2 years ago

Quoting steelo on 01 Aug 2021 10:19 AM
Cheap borescope (I think colour 100odd$ from aldi) look at bores and piston surfaces

I just seen one at supercheap for same price mate. Handy tool to have in the shed. Def be worth $100

Uncle Chougs
2 years ago

Your compression test shows that the cylinders are no more than 10% apart from one another which is what it should be.Looks like the original plugs were worn but not damaged(ie;ceramic broken),I would replace the original ones with NGK DCPR7E or NGK DCPR7EIX (iridium)for better performance .
so what I would suggest is to inspect the cam chain tensioner shoe ,it’s a very poor design to start with and a major problem on twin cams fitted with this system.The chain tensioner shoes are made of plastic and once the plastic shoe wears it’s metal to metal friction(maybe the noise you could hear) rough idle,ratling sound and misfire can be caused by this problem let us know what you can find see if we can help you out any further..

inmate, steelo and B0nes like this post

Grease Monkey
2 years ago

How many K's on it mate?

Wideglider
2 years ago

Quoting Far Canal on 01 Aug 2021 07:34 AM
If I was you I would take the bike to someone who knows what they are doing.
If there are no trustworthy dealers in your area you are not Robinson Carusoe. Perhaps you might like to tell us what general area you are from in case a member knows a good independent bike mechanic near you. Just assuming it needs a tear down seems like a bad place to start in my humble opinion.

Quoting inmate on 01 Aug 2021 07:59 AM
Far Canal I guess that's where you and I are different. Id like to do as much as I can before proceeding to somebody who "knows what they are doing" do you have any input at all with my current situation or just want to refer somebody to a mechanic. I built a couple engines in the past and repair everything else I've came across in the past 15 years. I'm not here to justify myself just here for actual input and some things to go through before he proceeds to the next step.

Quoting steelo on 01 Aug 2021 08:20 AMedited: 01 Aug 2021 08:59 AM
I'm completely with you IM. I'd be ready to injure myself.
Mechanics (even the one's that don't know much) are still going to charge you $120+ /hr just to diagnose the issue. Pull down, parts and a rebuild even it nothing it wrong is going to be in the many hundreds. Major issues and you're going to be in the thousands. Indy's and dealers are flat out at the moment selling new and servicing bikes.
I think we can draw comfort in the fact that the bike "runs" OK but deteriorates as it gets warmer.
Pleased that the compression seems even although I don't know what a suitable compression is.
I'm scratching my head as to what an oil overfill can do. I have heard of the oil frothing and some damage can be caused with the crank smashing into oil in a full sump.
Let's do what BB says, try and get the oil level down and see if it's possible there are any metallic filings in the oil
Replace all the spark plugs (one of those looks like its never fired and the other looks like its been doing all the work). (I think you did tell us which pair each was?) Can you be sure all are getting a spark
Don't forget the back cylinder gets all the heat.
Can you get hold of a borescope to look into the cylinders for scoring of the bores.
Google the shit out of the issue, get on other more technical based HD forums. Magnum54 or one of the other lads will know a few.
Don't despair. Your mates got some months before the riding season.

Riding season Steelo? Ride all year here.
Do you think we are all in Tasmania?!

inmate likes this post

inmate
2 years ago

Quoting Grease Monkey on 01 Aug 2021 11:57 AM
How many K's on it mate?

40,000 trouble free kms. Serviced every 5,000

Grease Monkey
2 years ago

Still stock? You get a bearing on where the noise was originating from? The old screwdriver to the ear if nothing else available.

Grease Monkey
2 years ago

I'll just add, if it was mine I'd pop the rocker box lids, push rod tubes and cam cover, I don't know what you know but a lot of stuff can be checked and discounted then.

steelo likes this post

steelo
2 years ago

Thanks WG. If the weather is not fine enough for us to ride past impressing people socializing and drinking coffee outside, we don't ride over here.

Wideglider likes this post

paulybronco
2 years ago

I would rule out the holed piston for the following reasons. You would have normally experienced a severe and obvious pinging or detonation every time you had the motor under load. You would have a huge difference between compression from the holed piston and the good cyl.
As for the motor noise i am going to go down the oil pump foooked route. My guess is that by overfilling the motor the o ring on the rear of the pump has failed due to excessive pressure and now not pumping the lifters up enough.
Lastly if your PVision has had someone dick around with timing and fuel tables you can run to lean easily. What tune is in it...a canned or dyno tune.

inmate
2 years ago

Quoting paulybronco on 02 Aug 2021 07:39 AM
I would rule out the holed piston for the following reasons. You would have normally experienced a severe and obvious pinging or detonation every time you had the motor under load. You would have a huge difference between compression from the holed piston and the good cyl.
As for the motor noise i am going to go down the oil pump foooked route. My guess is that by overfilling the motor the o ring on the rear of the pump has failed due to excessive pressure and now not pumping the lifters up enough.
Lastly if your PVision has had someone dick around with timing and fuel tables you can run to lean easily. What tune is in it...a canned or dyno tune.

Thankyou for the response mate. It is a custom dyno tune that has been in the bike for 3 years there have been absolutely no other issues. Workshop manual is on the way as I to have a 110 engine so will come.in handy for me also.

With this rear seal possibly gone im guessing the oil pressure would be off/low. I will test oil pressure tomorrow. It makes sense in my head as to why the bike runs well until warm then its a noisy pig. Who knows. Will test oil pressure then open it up and inspect further. As Grease Monkey suggested. The old screwdriver didn't narrow much noise down as it just travelled and was quite loud.

paulybronco
2 years ago

Quoting paulybronco on 02 Aug 2021 07:39 AM
I would rule out the holed piston for the following reasons. You would have normally experienced a severe and obvious pinging or detonation every time you had the motor under load. You would have a huge difference between compression from the holed piston and the good cyl.
As for the motor noise i am going to go down the oil pump foooked route. My guess is that by overfilling the motor the o ring on the rear of the pump has failed due to excessive pressure and now not pumping the lifters up enough.
Lastly if your PVision has had someone dick around with timing and fuel tables you can run to lean easily. What tune is in it...a canned or dyno tune.

Quoting inmate on 02 Aug 2021 10:15 AMedited: 02 Aug 2021 10:18 AM
Thankyou for the response mate. It is a custom dyno tune that has been in the bike for 3 years there have been absolutely no other issues. Workshop manual is on the way as I to have a 110 engine so will come.in handy for me also.

With this rear seal possibly gone im guessing the oil pressure would be off/low. I will test oil pressure tomorrow. It makes sense in my head as to why the bike runs well until warm then its a noisy pig. Who knows. Will test oil pressure then open it up and inspect further. As Grease Monkey suggested. The old screwdriver didn't narrow much noise down as it just travelled and was quite loud.

Its going to be difficult to check the oil pressure as when the oil is cold the gauge is going to give you a great reading because its still thick and i dont recommend running the motor once the lifters start bleeding down and i suspect the engine noise starts. My suggestion is to pull the pump and check that as the very first cause of the engine noise. once your confident the blood is flowing properly you can tackle the lean burn. Just as a matter of interest does that PVision run wide band sensors?

dicko
2 years ago

Um the oil is thinner when cold. eg 15w 40. w = winter. Thats why I drain my oil out when cold after leaving the bike overnight to allow all the old oil to get down.

paulybronco
2 years ago

Quoting dicko on 02 Aug 2021 11:22 PMedited: 02 Aug 2021 11:23 PM
Um the oil is thinner when cold. eg 15w 40. w = winter. Thats why I drain my oil out when cold after leaving the bike overnight to allow all the old oil to get down.

Sorry are you suggesting that cold oil is thinner than warm oil.....

Wideglider
2 years ago

Quoting dicko on 02 Aug 2021 11:22 PMedited: 02 Aug 2021 11:23 PM
Um the oil is thinner when cold. eg 15w 40. w = winter. Thats why I drain my oil out when cold after leaving the bike overnight to allow all the old oil to get down.

Um oil is thinner when hot.
Better off draining oil when hot to get more out.

beaglebasher
2 years ago

Give yourself an uppercut dicko.

leachy and inmate like this post

Topics

2/3

Melted Piston or worse

Melted Piston or worse

Wideglider

Jay-Dee

inmate

steelo

inmate

inmate

Uncle Chougs

Grease Monkey

Wideglider

inmate

Grease Monkey

Grease Monkey

steelo

paulybronco

inmate

paulybronco

dicko

paulybronco

Wideglider

beaglebasher