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  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 12:09 AM

    It tunes the timing by looking for dets.

    Auto tune systems only write tunes for areas that they have been taken to, so if you ride your bike and don't take it over 3.5k the map after 3.5k is a default until it gathers enough relevant data to re write the map. As has been found in the past this can be detrimental to the engine is some instances as the default could have an ignition map or fuel map not suitable for the engine in question.

    So it will only ever take timing out and never add spark advance ?
    It could be increased manually and tuned for spark in that manner, that is not autotuning.
    And tuning for mbt is not going to happen.
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 12:09 AM

    It tunes the timing by looking for dets.

    Auto tune systems only write tunes for areas that they have been taken to, so if you ride your bike and don't take it over 3.5k the map after 3.5k is a default until it gathers enough relevant data to re write the map. As has been found in the past this can be detrimental to the engine is some instances as the default could have an ignition map or fuel map not suitable for the engine in question.

    Quoting FBUser214 on 29 Sep 2021 04:02 AMedited: 29 Sep 2021 05:10 AM

    So it will only ever take timing out and never add spark advance ?
    It could be increased manually and tuned for spark in that manner, that is not autotuning.
    And tuning for mbt is not going to happen.

    Not trying to be smart or disrespectful , but has your tunning experience been gained via car's ? or via Harley's?

  • Hoodeng
    Hoodeng
    3 years ago
    FB, It tunes by looking for dets, that means is takes and adds till it finds a ping.


  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 04:22 AMedited: 29 Sep 2021 04:29 AM

    FB, It tunes by looking for dets, that means is takes and adds till it finds a ping.


    OK, Thanks
  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 12:09 AM

    It tunes the timing by looking for dets.

    Auto tune systems only write tunes for areas that they have been taken to, so if you ride your bike and don't take it over 3.5k the map after 3.5k is a default until it gathers enough relevant data to re write the map. As has been found in the past this can be detrimental to the engine is some instances as the default could have an ignition map or fuel map not suitable for the engine in question.

    Quoting FBUser214 on 29 Sep 2021 04:02 AMedited: 29 Sep 2021 05:10 AM

    So it will only ever take timing out and never add spark advance ?
    It could be increased manually and tuned for spark in that manner, that is not autotuning.
    And tuning for mbt is not going to happen.

    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 29 Sep 2021 04:20 AM

    Not trying to be smart or disrespectful , but has your tunning experience been gained via car's ? or via Harley's?


    My tuning experience consists of quite a few years with TTS and harley efi, mostly road tuning, some dyno time.
    Harleys can be tuned for mbt with an eddy current dyno too, if that is what you are getting at.
    Have you done any tuning with harley efi ?
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    3 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 28 Sep 2021 09:05 AM

    My son in law had a tmax on his bike, went to sell it at the Harley shop and they didn't want it, something to keep in mind anyway, plenty are happy with them but the best you know is the best you've had as they say, the Delphi ECM tuned properly is a very capable unit, btw, no such thing as Auto tune, doesn't do what you think it does, sales gimmick.

    Quoting tussuck on 28 Sep 2021 12:36 PM

    Bollocks!  The autotune function on the Tmax is bloody awesome.  It comes with the wideband O2 sensors (stock harley ones are narrowband on/off units) and the smarts to adjust fuel ratio to get to a mapped outcome.

    If autotune really autotuned, and that's for all the available gizmos, Lushy would be out of a job.
  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    3 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 28 Sep 2021 09:05 AM

    My son in law had a tmax on his bike, went to sell it at the Harley shop and they didn't want it, something to keep in mind anyway, plenty are happy with them but the best you know is the best you've had as they say, the Delphi ECM tuned properly is a very capable unit, btw, no such thing as Auto tune, doesn't do what you think it does, sales gimmick.

    Quoting tussuck on 28 Sep 2021 12:36 PM

    Bollocks!  The autotune function on the Tmax is bloody awesome.  It comes with the wideband O2 sensors (stock harley ones are narrowband on/off units) and the smarts to adjust fuel ratio to get to a mapped outcome.

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 29 Sep 2021 07:26 AM

    If autotune really autotuned, and that's for all the available gizmos, Lushy would be out of a job.

    What is your explanation of what a Thundermax does (or does not do) in regards to Auto-tune?
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    3 years ago
    Quoting FBUser214 on 29 Sep 2021 04:02 AMedited: 29 Sep 2021 05:10 AM

    So it will only ever take timing out and never add spark advance ?
    It could be increased manually and tuned for spark in that manner, that is not autotuning.
    And tuning for mbt is not going to happen.

    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 29 Sep 2021 04:20 AM

    Not trying to be smart or disrespectful , but has your tunning experience been gained via car's ? or via Harley's?


    Quoting FBUser214 on 29 Sep 2021 05:04 AMedited: 29 Sep 2021 05:12 AM

    My tuning experience consists of quite a few years with TTS and harley efi, mostly road tuning, some dyno time.
    Harleys can be tuned for mbt with an eddy current dyno too, if that is what you are getting at.
    Have you done any tuning with harley efi ?

    Not personally , but have friend with an engine dyno , thats in a bomb proof room. & have watched him many times mapping EFI.
    I've had my Harleys on DJ 250's & tried different tune's , then gone to the Long black dyno to see what the trap speed looked like. that's just double checking in real world & no cops to book you.
  • Hoodeng
    Hoodeng
    3 years ago
    FB, i can see where KK's comment came from.  I was thinking the same when you queried how the self tune software developed data. [maybe you were just testing us?].

    As for Lushy being techno'd out of a job? If guys understood how some things work just enough, and other things work well.. He is at no risk of unemployment until there is a quantum leap in data acquisition and interpretation.

    As to the veracity of downloads, or copy and pasting maps?, i think the fundamental understanding of individual tune is to be understood first.

    Cheers.
  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 11:56 PM

    FB, i can see where KK's comment came from.  I was thinking the same when you queried how the self tune software developed data. [maybe you were just testing us?].

    As for Lushy being techno'd out of a job? If guys understood how some things work just enough, and other things work well.. He is at no risk of unemployment until there is a quantum leap in data acquisition and interpretation.

    As to the veracity of downloads, or copy and pasting maps?, i think the fundamental understanding of individual tune is to be understood first.

    Cheers.

    Not testing anybody.
    I don't know a lot about thundermax. It may do a lot more than I thought it did.
    I know there are some guys who use it and are very happy, and there are some guys who use it and always seem to have trouble.
    If you get the right base map and and it auto tunes then everybody should be happy and apparently they have base maps to cover 'most' builds.

    Flash tuners work by gathering data from the engine under varying operating conditions and loading adjusted data back into it, to fine tune the performance
    If thundermax does that by itself, which is my understanding of what auto tuning is, that is great.
    Adjusting VE's is more straight forward, most tuning systems manage that.
    Tuning spark advance with flash tuners involves adding a bit of spark to the base map and allowing the software to pull it out where it pings or detonates. If that point is not reached, more advance is added until the knock point is reached . This is how the spark tables are built by the operator. And once complete, a couple of degrees are pulled out to create a safe map.
    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.

    Flash tuners allow maps to be created for heat cycles, and then break-in maps, before the final map is built. I am wondering how thundermax does this ?

    A lot of buzz about using wide bands because they operate over a larger area of the map, but narrow bands are much more responsive in the area most riders would spend 90% of their time, hence more fuel efficient.
    Wide bands are good for completing the map in the areas where narrow bands fall short and then putting those areas into open loop.

    There are a couple of queries in here for you Hoodeng.
    Most of this is for the benefit of others.
  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 11:56 PM

    FB, i can see where KK's comment came from.  I was thinking the same when you queried how the self tune software developed data. [maybe you were just testing us?].

    As for Lushy being techno'd out of a job? If guys understood how some things work just enough, and other things work well.. He is at no risk of unemployment until there is a quantum leap in data acquisition and interpretation.

    As to the veracity of downloads, or copy and pasting maps?, i think the fundamental understanding of individual tune is to be understood first.

    Cheers.

    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 08:12 AMedited: 30 Sep 2021 08:21 AM

    Not testing anybody.
    I don't know a lot about thundermax. It may do a lot more than I thought it did.
    I know there are some guys who use it and are very happy, and there are some guys who use it and always seem to have trouble.
    If you get the right base map and and it auto tunes then everybody should be happy and apparently they have base maps to cover 'most' builds.

    Flash tuners work by gathering data from the engine under varying operating conditions and loading adjusted data back into it, to fine tune the performance
    If thundermax does that by itself, which is my understanding of what auto tuning is, that is great.
    Adjusting VE's is more straight forward, most tuning systems manage that.
    Tuning spark advance with flash tuners involves adding a bit of spark to the base map and allowing the software to pull it out where it pings or detonates. If that point is not reached, more advance is added until the knock point is reached . This is how the spark tables are built by the operator. And once complete, a couple of degrees are pulled out to create a safe map.
    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.

    Flash tuners allow maps to be created for heat cycles, and then break-in maps, before the final map is built. I am wondering how thundermax does this ?

    A lot of buzz about using wide bands because they operate over a larger area of the map, but narrow bands are much more responsive in the area most riders would spend 90% of their time, hence more fuel efficient.
    Wide bands are good for completing the map in the areas where narrow bands fall short and then putting those areas into open loop.

    There are a couple of queries in here for you Hoodeng.
    Most of this is for the benefit of others.

    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.

    It has already been brought to your attention that Thundermax adjusts AFR - not spark advance.

  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Hoodeng on 29 Sep 2021 11:56 PM

    FB, i can see where KK's comment came from.  I was thinking the same when you queried how the self tune software developed data. [maybe you were just testing us?].

    As for Lushy being techno'd out of a job? If guys understood how some things work just enough, and other things work well.. He is at no risk of unemployment until there is a quantum leap in data acquisition and interpretation.

    As to the veracity of downloads, or copy and pasting maps?, i think the fundamental understanding of individual tune is to be understood first.

    Cheers.

    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 08:12 AMedited: 30 Sep 2021 08:21 AM

    Not testing anybody.
    I don't know a lot about thundermax. It may do a lot more than I thought it did.
    I know there are some guys who use it and are very happy, and there are some guys who use it and always seem to have trouble.
    If you get the right base map and and it auto tunes then everybody should be happy and apparently they have base maps to cover 'most' builds.

    Flash tuners work by gathering data from the engine under varying operating conditions and loading adjusted data back into it, to fine tune the performance
    If thundermax does that by itself, which is my understanding of what auto tuning is, that is great.
    Adjusting VE's is more straight forward, most tuning systems manage that.
    Tuning spark advance with flash tuners involves adding a bit of spark to the base map and allowing the software to pull it out where it pings or detonates. If that point is not reached, more advance is added until the knock point is reached . This is how the spark tables are built by the operator. And once complete, a couple of degrees are pulled out to create a safe map.
    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.

    Flash tuners allow maps to be created for heat cycles, and then break-in maps, before the final map is built. I am wondering how thundermax does this ?

    A lot of buzz about using wide bands because they operate over a larger area of the map, but narrow bands are much more responsive in the area most riders would spend 90% of their time, hence more fuel efficient.
    Wide bands are good for completing the map in the areas where narrow bands fall short and then putting those areas into open loop.

    There are a couple of queries in here for you Hoodeng.
    Most of this is for the benefit of others.

    Quoting Wideglider on 30 Sep 2021 08:31 AMedited: 30 Sep 2021 08:34 AM

    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.


    It has already been brought to your attention that Thundermax adjusts AFR - not spark advance.

    Tussuk said that and he doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
    You need to do some reading too.
    Check reply from Hoodeng 29 Sep 2021 04.22
  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    3 years ago
    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 08:12 AMedited: 30 Sep 2021 08:21 AM

    Not testing anybody.
    I don't know a lot about thundermax. It may do a lot more than I thought it did.
    I know there are some guys who use it and are very happy, and there are some guys who use it and always seem to have trouble.
    If you get the right base map and and it auto tunes then everybody should be happy and apparently they have base maps to cover 'most' builds.

    Flash tuners work by gathering data from the engine under varying operating conditions and loading adjusted data back into it, to fine tune the performance
    If thundermax does that by itself, which is my understanding of what auto tuning is, that is great.
    Adjusting VE's is more straight forward, most tuning systems manage that.
    Tuning spark advance with flash tuners involves adding a bit of spark to the base map and allowing the software to pull it out where it pings or detonates. If that point is not reached, more advance is added until the knock point is reached . This is how the spark tables are built by the operator. And once complete, a couple of degrees are pulled out to create a safe map.
    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.

    Flash tuners allow maps to be created for heat cycles, and then break-in maps, before the final map is built. I am wondering how thundermax does this ?

    A lot of buzz about using wide bands because they operate over a larger area of the map, but narrow bands are much more responsive in the area most riders would spend 90% of their time, hence more fuel efficient.
    Wide bands are good for completing the map in the areas where narrow bands fall short and then putting those areas into open loop.

    There are a couple of queries in here for you Hoodeng.
    Most of this is for the benefit of others.

    Quoting Wideglider on 30 Sep 2021 08:31 AMedited: 30 Sep 2021 08:34 AM

    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.


    It has already been brought to your attention that Thundermax adjusts AFR - not spark advance.

    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 09:26 AM

    Tussuk said that and he doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
    You need to do some reading too.
    Check reply from Hoodeng 29 Sep 2021 04.22

    I had previously read all posts & was fully aware of all the differing replies - just wondered how you chose which one to believe (gotta love forums)!
    Anyway, found this online from Thundermax...

    ThunderMax Ignition Timing Myths  
    Myth # 1 ThunderMax does not make automatic adjustments or timing corrections. False - ThunderMax automatically adjusts timing tables for the following changing conditions: Changes in Engine Temperature, Barometer, Intake Air Temperature plus a Separate Scale for Boost Applications. 
    Myth #2 ThunderMax does not allow access to adjust small or large changes in specific areas of timing related to RPM or Throttle Position. False - Easy access exists for making further changes in timing relative to any RPM and Throttle Position. Plus, further adjustments by Engine Temperature, Engine Speed, and Rear Cylinder adjustments. 
  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Wideglider on 30 Sep 2021 08:31 AMedited: 30 Sep 2021 08:34 AM

    If thundermax has the ability to add and subtract spark by itself to find these levels , that is great.


    It has already been brought to your attention that Thundermax adjusts AFR - not spark advance.

    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 09:26 AM

    Tussuk said that and he doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
    You need to do some reading too.
    Check reply from Hoodeng 29 Sep 2021 04.22

    Quoting Wideglider on 30 Sep 2021 10:14 AM

    I had previously read all posts & was fully aware of all the differing replies - just wondered how you chose which one to believe (gotta love forums)!

    Anyway, found this online from Thundermax...

    ThunderMax Ignition Timing Myths  
    Myth # 1 ThunderMax does not make automatic adjustments or timing corrections. False - ThunderMax automatically adjusts timing tables for the following changing conditions: Changes in Engine Temperature, Barometer, Intake Air Temperature plus a Separate Scale for Boost Applications. 
    Myth #2 ThunderMax does not allow access to adjust small or large changes in specific areas of timing related to RPM or Throttle Position. False - Easy access exists for making further changes in timing relative to any RPM and Throttle Position. Plus, further adjustments by Engine Temperature, Engine Speed, and Rear Cylinder adjustments. 

    Yeah, I did some reading yesterday and found that.
    I would like to hear from someone who has used it.
  • beaglebasher
    beaglebasher
    3 years ago
    I still have the original computer in my bike. 
    Runs like a fukin champ. 
  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    3 years ago
    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 09:26 AM

    Tussuk said that and he doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
    You need to do some reading too.
    Check reply from Hoodeng 29 Sep 2021 04.22

    Quoting Wideglider on 30 Sep 2021 10:14 AM

    I had previously read all posts & was fully aware of all the differing replies - just wondered how you chose which one to believe (gotta love forums)!

    Anyway, found this online from Thundermax...

    ThunderMax Ignition Timing Myths  
    Myth # 1 ThunderMax does not make automatic adjustments or timing corrections. False - ThunderMax automatically adjusts timing tables for the following changing conditions: Changes in Engine Temperature, Barometer, Intake Air Temperature plus a Separate Scale for Boost Applications. 
    Myth #2 ThunderMax does not allow access to adjust small or large changes in specific areas of timing related to RPM or Throttle Position. False - Easy access exists for making further changes in timing relative to any RPM and Throttle Position. Plus, further adjustments by Engine Temperature, Engine Speed, and Rear Cylinder adjustments. 

    Quoting FBUser214 on 30 Sep 2021 10:35 AM

    Yeah, I did some reading yesterday and found that.
    I would like to hear from someone who has used it.

    Original Poster Jeffa hasn't returned since the beginning, says he "may not return to the forum often." 
    Good thing he left us his email so someone may forward all this info on to him.
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    3 years ago
    Tmax uses lookup tables to adjust spark, nothing fancy, ie spark temp correction ETC, you blokes that know what that is will understand, they even tell you that those tables may need to be adjusted to suit your bike, kind of a disclaimer that most will never read, as far as I know it does not sense real time knock or adjust for that, from what I understand the auto-tune is a fancy name for a wide band 02 closed loop fuel trim, harley had their WB version awhile back, I have one in the shed, PV have them as well, stock HD's use a narrow band closed loop, probably pointless saying it works better, end of the day if you just installed the tmax and rode away its not tuned, it has a cal from the bank in it that would benefit greatly by following the tuning link I put up earlier or taking it to a real tuner, same as all of the decent systems. 

    My comment about putting Lushy out of work was tongue in cheek, not a chance that will happen anytime soon, I would take my bike to him if he was closer.

    The tuning link again.

    If I'm wrong I'm happy to be educated, but give me something that I can read, unless its your trade, just saying bollocks don't cut it.


  • Wideglider
    Wideglider
    3 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 01 Oct 2021 03:43 AM

    Tmax uses lookup tables to adjust spark, nothing fancy, ie spark temp correction ETC, you blokes that know what that is will understand, they even tell you that those tables may need to be adjusted to suit your bike, kind of a disclaimer that most will never read, as far as I know it does not sense real time knock or adjust for that, from what I understand the auto-tune is a fancy name for a wide band 02 closed loop fuel trim, harley had their WB version awhile back, I have one in the shed, PV have them as well, stock HD's use a narrow band closed loop, probably pointless saying it works better, end of the day if you just installed the tmax and rode away its not tuned, it has a cal from the bank in it that would benefit greatly by following the tuning link I put up earlier or taking it to a real tuner, same as all of the decent systems. 


    My comment about putting Lushy out of work was tongue in cheek, not a chance that will happen anytime soon, I would take my bike to him if he was closer.

    The tuning link again.

    If I'm wrong I'm happy to be educated, but give me something that I can read, unless its your trade, just saying bollocks don't cut it.


    Thanks GM for your reply & explaining the auto-tuning that Thundermax does.
    Your great examples:
    Oxygen fuel-trimming
    Spark temperature correction
    (The 'Look-up tables' you mention are a very reliable conventional standard for any modern controller).
    Some more features to support your auto-tuning argument are from the Thundermax website pdf (again):
    ThunderMax automatically adjusts timing tables for the following changing conditions: 
    Changes in Engine Temperature, 
    Barometer, 
    Intake Air Temperature 
    plus a Separate Scale for Boost Applications. 

    I don't quite know what other systems you would consider 'fancy', but yes I agree with you that the bottom line is that Thundermax is auto-tuning.

  • FBUser214
    FBUser214
    3 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 01 Oct 2021 03:43 AM

    Tmax uses lookup tables to adjust spark, nothing fancy, ie spark temp correction ETC, you blokes that know what that is will understand, they even tell you that those tables may need to be adjusted to suit your bike, kind of a disclaimer that most will never read, as far as I know it does not sense real time knock or adjust for that, from what I understand the auto-tune is a fancy name for a wide band 02 closed loop fuel trim, harley had their WB version awhile back, I have one in the shed, PV have them as well, stock HD's use a narrow band closed loop, probably pointless saying it works better, end of the day if you just installed the tmax and rode away its not tuned, it has a cal from the bank in it that would benefit greatly by following the tuning link I put up earlier or taking it to a real tuner, same as all of the decent systems. 


    My comment about putting Lushy out of work was tongue in cheek, not a chance that will happen anytime soon, I would take my bike to him if he was closer.

    The tuning link again.

    If I'm wrong I'm happy to be educated, but give me something that I can read, unless its your trade, just saying bollocks don't cut it.


    Quoting Wideglider on 01 Oct 2021 10:40 AM

    Thanks GM for your reply & explaining the auto-tuning that Thundermax does.

    Your great examples:
    Oxygen fuel-trimming
    Spark temperature correction
    (The 'Look-up tables' you mention are a very reliable conventional standard for any modern controller).
    Some more features to support your auto-tuning argument are from the Thundermax website pdf (again):
    ThunderMax automatically adjusts timing tables for the following changing conditions: 
    Changes in Engine Temperature, 
    Barometer, 
    Intake Air Temperature 
    plus a Separate Scale for Boost Applications. 

    I don't quite know what other systems you would consider 'fancy', but yes I agree with you that the bottom line is that Thundermax is auto-tuning.

    Not sure how you could take GM's post to be an endorsement of thundermax's auto tuning capabilities.
    At best thundermax has auto part tuning capability. It does fuel trims and spark temperature correction. Spark temperature correction is not the same as spark advance or timing correction.
    As far as I understand the thundermax ecm has no knock sensing capability, whereas the delphi ecm has ion sensing knock control capability used by some of the more advanced flash tuners to pull timing where appropriate and avoid knock.
    The timing tables in thundermax are manipulated manually to avoid knock and running rich AFR's is part of the strategy. Spark temperature correction comes into play as well and is achieved using the input from other sensors.
    Other systems using the stock ecm, have spark temperature correction as well as knock control and recording of these events allows the adjustments to be made manually to the timing tables in the calibration where required.
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