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Increased Fuel Usage after new Header pipes

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  • fatbat
    fatbat
    3 years ago
    Quoting Jersey on 29 Aug 2021 12:25 PM

    Hi Fatbat

    What am I chasing then?
    I guess will find out when I can get some more KMs on bike.
    Jersey

    I had a 2013 road glide 103ci with se204 cam loaded for touring and on cruise control at a sensible speed I could get 300 out of a tank although I’d usually be looking to stop from 250 onwards. I had a 2007 fatboy with an S&S 107ci top end and s&s 585 cams and cruising on the highway I could get at least 250kms out of it. Both bikes were properly dyno tuned with a se race tuner and tts tuner respectively. In comparison to your bike, something is wrong given your mileage. 

    The fuel trim changes really are minimal. Which is why you can upgrade an exhaust OR air cleaner (but not both) without adding more fuel usually via a tuner. If the ecu fuel trim added litres of fuel per hundred kms, there’d be limited or no use for aftermarket tuners. 

    If you had a se race tuner, tts or powervision, you could record lots of information what your bike is doing and how much fuel is being used and where, the timing of ignition etc. You can  diagnose and remedy issues if you know what you’re doing.  Without the benefit of this you can only guess theories like are the o2 sensors playing up, which cylinder is rich/lean etc, and trial/error your xied settings.

    I’m not a fan of xied and if you want a cheap way of making a bike run reasonable and safely, a v&h fuel pak will do that and v&h provide reasonable support in providing calibrations and changes when required. Maybe xied does the same if you contact them and tell them what you have? Better again are the proper tuners that record and log, and used in the hands of a capable dyno tuner across a range of conditions and throttle inputs you’ll have an engine running smoothly, efficiently with better throttle response everywhere. 

    Most people don’t appreciate the benefit of a proper Dyno tune until they get one. It’s human nature to believe what you have works well until you know better. The alternative options I’ve suggested cost more obviously but I consider it a small outlay to have my exxy bike running nicely and I don’t have to worry about unnecessary heat/stress, leaning out, pinging etc 

    Sorry I’m not helping much other than suggesting contact with xied.  There are a few good tuners around the country you could talk to but where are you located?
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Thanks Fatbat
    A mate of mine also recommended the Fuel Pak.  Exhaust and Air Cleaner is all I plan to do the bike.  If still having the problem once I get thru a tank or two of fuel I will consider buying one.
    Thanks
    Jersey
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Quoting Jersey on 29 Aug 2021 12:25 PM

    Hi Fatbat

    What am I chasing then?
    I guess will find out when I can get some more KMs on bike.
    Jersey

    Quoting fatbat on 30 Aug 2021 06:41 AMedited: 30 Aug 2021 06:43 AM

    I had a 2013 road glide 103ci with se204 cam loaded for touring and on cruise control at a sensible speed I could get 300 out of a tank although I’d usually be looking to stop from 250 onwards. I had a 2007 fatboy with an S&S 107ci top end and s&s 585 cams and cruising on the highway I could get at least 250kms out of it. Both bikes were properly dyno tuned with a se race tuner and tts tuner respectively. In comparison to your bike, something is wrong given your mileage. 


    The fuel trim changes really are minimal. Which is why you can upgrade an exhaust OR air cleaner (but not both) without adding more fuel usually via a tuner. If the ecu fuel trim added litres of fuel per hundred kms, there’d be limited or no use for aftermarket tuners. 

    If you had a se race tuner, tts or powervision, you could record lots of information what your bike is doing and how much fuel is being used and where, the timing of ignition etc. You can  diagnose and remedy issues if you know what you’re doing.  Without the benefit of this you can only guess theories like are the o2 sensors playing up, which cylinder is rich/lean etc, and trial/error your xied settings.

    I’m not a fan of xied and if you want a cheap way of making a bike run reasonable and safely, a v&h fuel pak will do that and v&h provide reasonable support in providing calibrations and changes when required. Maybe xied does the same if you contact them and tell them what you have? Better again are the proper tuners that record and log, and used in the hands of a capable dyno tuner across a range of conditions and throttle inputs you’ll have an engine running smoothly, efficiently with better throttle response everywhere. 

    Most people don’t appreciate the benefit of a proper Dyno tune until they get one. It’s human nature to believe what you have works well until you know better. The alternative options I’ve suggested cost more obviously but I consider it a small outlay to have my exxy bike running nicely and I don’t have to worry about unnecessary heat/stress, leaning out, pinging etc 

    Sorry I’m not helping much other than suggesting contact with xied.  There are a few good tuners around the country you could talk to but where are you located?

    Sorry Fat Bat 
    I'm in Sydney Bankstown area.
    Jersey
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    3 years ago
    Jersey I think you have most of the info you need but can I just add this, even a stock bike benifits from a good tune, I've road tuned quite a few over the years and the owners are always stoked with how much better the bikes run, I'm no pro tuner either.
    You need something to collect data and you need to analyse that data and make the needed changes to the calibration, rinse and repeat until it's done, there is nothing you can bolt onto a bike that will do that process for you.
  • fatbat
    fatbat
    3 years ago
    Agree with grease monkey. 

    Whichever way you go Jersey, hope it works out well for you. You’re not far from Hoxton Park and LA Cycles get good wraps as an Indy shop and I believe they do fuel injected tuning if you ever wanted to chat to them or consider. 

    Good luck mate 
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Thanks Fatbat and Grease Monkey
    Have got about 90KMs on bike since ECU reset.  Will fill up at 150 and see if it has changed.  I must say the bike is running better than ever but.  Slightly higher idle and reduced vibration at idle.  Being a rubber mounted engine handlebars used to shake like crazy making mirrors useless sitting at lights.  Now much reduced shaking.  Power and acceleration has improved as well.  From day one I never liked the OEM Headers.  The S&S ones engineering are far superior.  Even the heat shields are works of art.  Went from five different shields on the OEM headers down to three on the S&S ones.  Very happy if the fuel issue has been sorted.  Will make about 10 trips back and forth to work on the weekend (LOL) to get some KMs on it and should know by Monday.
    Jersey
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    3 years ago
    Jersey I got something for you, did a decent run on the weekend and took notice of the the fuel consumption, mines a 110 Softail with SE263 cams, this tank had a mixture of town, two up and highway K's, speed up to 117kmh on cruise.
    Tank 18.9L
    Used 15.8L
    Did 321ks
    Gives me a theoretical range of 383km.
    When I topped up the tank the bike computer gave me a figure of 416km to go which I assume was based on the last hour or so of operation on the highway. The steady state cruise area of my afr table is 14.4-14.5 to 1. 
    I know you won't get that on yours but if you get it tuned properly it would be closer to it than you are now.

  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Fuck me Grease Monkey.
    Best I ever got was around 250ks on 16 litres.
    Might have to reconsider blowing cobwebs out of wallet and getting a tuner.  I think I told you I was a cheap ass.  Except for services.  I am an OCD Cunt when it comes to them.
    Your ride a huge difference from my last tank running out at 175kms.
    Have got around 150kms on it now since resetting ECM but have not filled it up yet.  Maybe one night this week.  If I get back to 7 litres per hundred Im happy as a few others are getting around that.  But if still not at least 7-8 kms per hundred I will start the tuner process.
    Thanks Man 
    Jersey
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    OK I filled up tonight at 174kms and put in 13.59 litres.  Unless I'm a complete dumb ass that is 7.8 litres per hundred.  I never really checked exact mileage before the Header change as I didn't really care.  I would just fill up somewhere around 250kms as Fuel gage is fucked and put somewhere around 16 litres in.  After the Headers install and a fresh tank I ran out of fuel on exactly 175 kms.  Tank is 18.9 litres.  That equates to 10.8 litres per hundred I think.  I swear the only thing I have done is reset my ECM, filled up again and got 7.8 km per hundred over 174 kms.  Actually' I put he Catch Can on as well but don't think this would have made fuck all difference.  Each time I filled exactly to the brim.  I understand some of the guys saying the stock ECM cant trim that much.  I don't know; I am just saying what happened.  It appears the reset worked and I'm 3 litres per hundred better than I was.
    Thanks to all those that posted and I still find the topic interesting as there was several obviously knowledgeable replies.  Whether I have my head up my ass or not, seeing the post from the dude that said whenever running a stock ECM and changing slip ons, headers or air cleaner reset your ecm, has stuck with me.  Obviously anyone with more upgrades than that would also had to put a tuner on it.  I'm just gunna run a few more tanks and monitor.  Maybe after 2-3 rest again and see what happens.  Thanks for replies. Take Care Be safe.
  • fatbat
    fatbat
    3 years ago
    Thanks for sharing update and glad you’ve made some progress. Still not good fuel economy (rich) given my 1,500 kg all wheel drive car uses less fuel per 100km 
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Yea Its crazy Fatbat.
    I actually have the Variable VIED installed.  It has been set on Max setting for 5 years. Max is one click above recommended.  I will back them off one notch to the recommended in a couple weeks and of course reset ECM again.
    See what happens.
    Jersey
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    3 years ago
    Hey Jersey, do you know what afr it's running at under full load?
    Sorry if you already posted, but was thinking if you could have checked what afr under load it was showing before pipe change & after, would be interesting.
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Hi Krash 
    No Idea.  I guess it is at whatever Harley set at the factory with Injector size and a bunch of other stuff.  Wide open throttle bypasses the ECM controlling AFR as I understand it.  May be wrong.  I think it is in closed loop below 2500rpm and the ECM is constantly adjusting to maintain a low AFR.  At wide open throttle the Loop opens and the bike stops listening to the sensors and dumps fuel.  I have No idea at what AFR as I don't run a controller.  I can't remember what the VIED is set up at either.  I've got a sheet in the ex's garage somewhere.  Will pull it out this weekend.  But this should only tell me the AFR under 2500 or whatever the RPM is when the system goes to Open Loop.
    Jersey
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    3 years ago
    Quoting Jersey on 09 Sep 2021 07:03 AM

    Hi Krash 

    No Idea.  I guess it is at whatever Harley set at the factory with Injector size and a bunch of other stuff.  Wide open throttle bypasses the ECM controlling AFR as I understand it.  May be wrong.  I think it is in closed loop below 2500rpm and the ECM is constantly adjusting to maintain a low AFR.  At wide open throttle the Loop opens and the bike stops listening to the sensors and dumps fuel.  I have No idea at what AFR as I don't run a controller.  I can't remember what the VIED is set up at either.  I've got a sheet in the ex's garage somewhere.  Will pull it out this weekend.  But this should only tell me the AFR under 2500 or whatever the RPM is when the system goes to Open Loop.
    Jersey

    Hey Jersey, no worries. when you changed the pipe did you just take the air sensor out of old pipe & fit it to the new pipe?
    If so might be worth checking that the air sensor in pipe ok.
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Quoting Jersey on 09 Sep 2021 07:03 AM

    Hi Krash 

    No Idea.  I guess it is at whatever Harley set at the factory with Injector size and a bunch of other stuff.  Wide open throttle bypasses the ECM controlling AFR as I understand it.  May be wrong.  I think it is in closed loop below 2500rpm and the ECM is constantly adjusting to maintain a low AFR.  At wide open throttle the Loop opens and the bike stops listening to the sensors and dumps fuel.  I have No idea at what AFR as I don't run a controller.  I can't remember what the VIED is set up at either.  I've got a sheet in the ex's garage somewhere.  Will pull it out this weekend.  But this should only tell me the AFR under 2500 or whatever the RPM is when the system goes to Open Loop.
    Jersey

    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 09 Sep 2021 11:18 AM

    Hey Jersey, no worries. when you changed the pipe did you just take the air sensor out of old pipe & fit it to the new pipe?

    If so might be worth checking that the air sensor in pipe ok.

    Hi Krash 
    I did not put new 02 sensors in.  I just wire brushed the old ones a bit and reinstalled in the new pipes making sure the front one went back in the front and the rear in the rear.  Maybe just being pedantic.
    When you say is the sensor in the Pipe Ok  I assume so as I believe in the S&S engineers engineered the depths correctly.  They threaded in perfectly and fully bottomed out.  Only difference would be I put a dab of copper thread anti seize on the threads when reinstalling as they were dry and a bit crusty coming out.  Should have no affect.  I think I am good.  The reset got me 3 litres per hundred back.  When I first installed the VIEDs 6 years ago I was so shitty about how hot and lean the bike ran I cranked them one setting past the recommended and it ran great so I never fucked with them.  I will crank it back one notch to the recommended tomorrow and let you know what the AFR should be if I can find the Knightrider AFR table in my garage.  Hopefully still run well and drop another litre per hundred off.
    Thanks for input.
    Jersey
  • Jersey
    Jersey
    3 years ago
    Quoting Jersey on 09 Sep 2021 07:03 AM

    Hi Krash 

    No Idea.  I guess it is at whatever Harley set at the factory with Injector size and a bunch of other stuff.  Wide open throttle bypasses the ECM controlling AFR as I understand it.  May be wrong.  I think it is in closed loop below 2500rpm and the ECM is constantly adjusting to maintain a low AFR.  At wide open throttle the Loop opens and the bike stops listening to the sensors and dumps fuel.  I have No idea at what AFR as I don't run a controller.  I can't remember what the VIED is set up at either.  I've got a sheet in the ex's garage somewhere.  Will pull it out this weekend.  But this should only tell me the AFR under 2500 or whatever the RPM is when the system goes to Open Loop.
    Jersey

    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 09 Sep 2021 11:18 AM

    Hey Jersey, no worries. when you changed the pipe did you just take the air sensor out of old pipe & fit it to the new pipe?

    If so might be worth checking that the air sensor in pipe ok.

    Quoting Jersey on 10 Sep 2021 09:21 AM

    Hi Krash 

    I did not put new 02 sensors in.  I just wire brushed the old ones a bit and reinstalled in the new pipes making sure the front one went back in the front and the rear in the rear.  Maybe just being pedantic.
    When you say is the sensor in the Pipe Ok  I assume so as I believe in the S&S engineers engineered the depths correctly.  They threaded in perfectly and fully bottomed out.  Only difference would be I put a dab of copper thread anti seize on the threads when reinstalling as they were dry and a bit crusty coming out.  Should have no affect.  I think I am good.  The reset got me 3 litres per hundred back.  When I first installed the VIEDs 6 years ago I was so shitty about how hot and lean the bike ran I cranked them one setting past the recommended and it ran great so I never fucked with them.  I will crank it back one notch to the recommended tomorrow and let you know what the AFR should be if I can find the Knightrider AFR table in my garage.  Hopefully still run well and drop another litre per hundred off.
    Thanks for input.
    Jersey

    Hi All
    Havent ridden much unfortunately but finally ran enough petrol thru the bike to do another mileage check.  I turned back the VIED to the recommended setting and reset the ECM again.  Fuel mileage was 7.3 per hundred. A slight improvement over the last time at 7.8 per hundred.  I know some of the guys are saying the ECM can only make Trim Changes. I don't question that.  But it is my conclusion that the stock ECM can get out of whack if you make a change to your exhaust or Air cleaner and should be reset if you make any changes like this.  I am down from over 10 litres per hundred to 7.3 and resetting the the ECM is all I did.  At 7.3 I am happy enough and the bike is running as nice as it ever has.  
    Thanks for all of the input.  I hope it helps someone else.  I am going to leave it as is until I decide whether to put Cams in it which will then require a new tuner.
    Jersey 
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