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SE Stage 1 to Stage 2 Canned Maps

  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Hi All,
    So just wondering something. 

    Just had the the bike (2016 103 Low Rider) fitted with SE254E cams and it now sounds really different when the starter engages, it sounds like it spins the motor faster. I was just wondering if the stock 103 actually has a decomp valves. Does anyone knows if the Stage 1 canned map uses the decomp settings, Im thinking that after the Stage 2 has been loaded in its now turning on the decomp valve so the motor spins faster util it fires up.

    Regards
    Leachy
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    4 years ago
    Quoting leachy on 23 Jul 2020 05:03 AM

    Hi All,

    So just wondering something. 

    Just had the the bike (2016 103 Low Rider) fitted with SE254E cams and it now sounds really different when the starter engages, it sounds like it spins the motor faster. I was just wondering if the stock 103 actually has a decomp valves. Does anyone knows if the Stage 1 canned map uses the decomp settings, Im thinking that after the Stage 2 has been loaded in its now turning on the decomp valve so the motor spins faster util it fires up.

    Regards
    Leachy

    Decomps are on on everyone I've seen that's fitted with them, been a few changes in the calibrations in the last few years that make them spin over easier, cam timing plays a part as well.
    Be even better when it's tuned, I promise.
  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Thanks for the reply, I just wast sure if it was on all newer bikes. It actually seems to start easier, its like you can hear the gear drive of the starter, it turns over easier and the engine is quieter while this is happening. Anyway I was just wondering.
    Thanks
  • Retroman
    Retroman
    4 years ago

    There was a time not too long ago when I had to go into the tuning constants and physically check if the compression release was "toggled on".

    In many 103 calibrations it was not ( I always checked anyway) but some bikes would arrive at me with a dealer loaded "stage 1" and decomp' OFF.

    Some had been running that way for yonks and I got to be able to tell by sound if the bikes were struggling on startup. Older batteries the worst.

    Once I reflashed them with a calibration suitably enabled the starting was so much easier.

    I had a good relationship with a bloke in the US who did all the reflashing for 5 HD dealers in his home state , a retired engineer.

    He would send me calibrations for builds using non HD cams etc etc as he had thousands of options saved since 2002 and he pointed out to me to check each SERT and Supertuner Pro calibration for Decomp to be toggled on.

  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Thanks for the info. Im sure the decomp on mine wasn't being turned on. I rode the bike for the second time on the weekend after getting the work done and it started so much easier than what it used to. The motor spins up faster and there's no strain to turn it over. 
    Also would you know what RPM the rev limiter cuts in. For the first time in owning the bike I hit the rev limiter coming out of a corner passing a car. Im assuming it maybe 6K rpm. But it was so smooth and got there so quick, generally do rev it that high but it just got there.

    Thanks
    Leachy
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    4 years ago
    Fair dink Gregg, completely opposite to what I've seen, go figure, you sure the techs that originally flashed the tune didn't turn them off?
    Used a few of the said tune builders tunes, went another way each time, there is no substitute for good data, don't see how you can sit in a chair and invent calibrations that are going to be accurate or even close for that matter, sure you offer suggestions that might stop it popping or make it start easier but it's not tuned to my way of thinking.
    Leachy, limiter is wherever it was set either by whoever flashed it in in or what the tune was made with, you got a laptop? If you do download the the SE software, pull the cal off the vci and have a gander, it isn't rocket science once you get into it.

  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Yeah I do, I just need to buy the lead to plug it in, its on the list of things to do but just haven't had the time to play with it.
    Thanks
    Leachy
  • Smokey61
    Smokey61
    4 years ago
    My ACR was disabled prior to the recent dyno tune and didn't feel any different afterward, so I'm assuming they left it as was.

    The previous owner said it was disabled, I assumed disabling it involved physically removing something. (I'm slowly learning about twin cams but the more I learn, the more my brains screams "Just get another fucking Evo for Christ's sake.").

  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    4 years ago
    Quoting Smokey61 on 05 Aug 2020 01:05 AM

    My ACR was disabled prior to the recent dyno tune and didn't feel any different afterward, so I'm assuming they left it as was.

    The previous owner said it was disabled, I assumed disabling it involved physically removing something. (I'm slowly learning about twin cams but the more I learn, the more my brains screams "Just get another fucking Evo for Christ's sake.").

    No physical stuff smokie, you just check a box in the tuning constraints part of the calibration, save it and flash it back into the ECM. 
  • Retroman
    Retroman
    4 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Aug 2020 08:24 AM

    Fair dink Gregg, completely opposite to what I've seen, go figure, you sure the techs that originally flashed the tune didn't turn them off?

    Used a few of the said tune builders tunes, went another way each time, there is no substitute for good data, don't see how you can sit in a chair and invent calibrations that are going to be accurate or even close for that matter, sure you offer suggestions that might stop it popping or make it start easier but it's not tuned to my way of thinking.
    Leachy, limiter is wherever it was set either by whoever flashed it in in or what the tune was made with, you got a laptop? If you do download the the SE software, pull the cal off the vci and have a gander, it isn't rocket science once you get into it.

    Nah mate you didn't use this guys tunes. He did all the Dyno work for a 5 Harley dealership chain across his home state.

    He had saved every tune he had ever done , bike model year/engine/cam/exhaust. All the way back to 2002

    I told him what I had to work on coming in , Andrews cam , 2:1 supertrapp etc etc and invaraiably he had a similar/exact same build in his file.

    They always worked really well. The "mostest favourite" was for various stage 1 builds with V&H popping MOFOS than most Aussie dealers fit !

    He had it down pat , part throttle and throttle overrun changes to suit. AND he only ever sent them to me as far as I know.

    I sent him "Aussie" Harley T shirts with 'Roos and Koalas and the like.

    AND if you look at many cals for 103's say 2013 and younger , the stage 1 cals in the Supertuner pro calibration list are "toggled off".

    For example , look up 357SDQ001-00 , 2012 -2017 1690 stage 1 , and the ACR's are toggled off , I kid you not. Even in the latest software.

    I have come across dozens and dozens of bikes with this and similar calibrations , many "toggled off" as they come. ALL dealer reflashed when new.

    I have the most common/popular ones "toggled on" and saved as 357SDQ001-ACRon-00

  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Well Retroman,  I concur with what you are saying, I am sure that mine wasn't coming on with the stage one that was in my bike. It came with a Supertrapp slip-on and modified air filter from the dealer.
    It starts so much easier doesnt feel like it just makes it over the hump as it fires up now, and Im sure that its not just because of the cam. You can hear the motor spin faster.

    Thanks for the info. 
  • Smokey61
    Smokey61
    4 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Aug 2020 08:24 AM

    Fair dink Gregg, completely opposite to what I've seen, go figure, you sure the techs that originally flashed the tune didn't turn them off?

    Used a few of the said tune builders tunes, went another way each time, there is no substitute for good data, don't see how you can sit in a chair and invent calibrations that are going to be accurate or even close for that matter, sure you offer suggestions that might stop it popping or make it start easier but it's not tuned to my way of thinking.
    Leachy, limiter is wherever it was set either by whoever flashed it in in or what the tune was made with, you got a laptop? If you do download the the SE software, pull the cal off the vci and have a gander, it isn't rocket science once you get into it.

    Quoting Retroman on 05 Aug 2020 02:01 AM

    Nah mate you didn't use this guys tunes. He did all the Dyno work for a 5 Harley dealership chain across his home state.

    He had saved every tune he had ever done , bike model year/engine/cam/exhaust. All the way back to 2002

    I told him what I had to work on coming in , Andrews cam , 2:1 supertrapp etc etc and invaraiably he had a similar/exact same build in his file.

    They always worked really well. The "mostest favourite" was for various stage 1 builds with V&H popping MOFOS than most Aussie dealers fit !

    He had it down pat , part throttle and throttle overrun changes to suit. AND he only ever sent them to me as far as I know.

    I sent him "Aussie" Harley T shirts with 'Roos and Koalas and the like.

    AND if you look at many cals for 103's say 2013 and younger , the stage 1 cals in the Supertuner pro calibration list are "toggled off".

    For example , look up 357SDQ001-00 , 2012 -2017 1690 stage 1 , and the ACR's are toggled off , I kid you not. Even in the latest software.

    I have come across dozens and dozens of bikes with this and similar calibrations , many "toggled off" as they come. ALL dealer reflashed when new.

    I have the most common/popular ones "toggled on" and saved as 357SDQ001-ACRon-00


    I used a canned tune for stage 2 103 with SE204 cams, had ACR off, I did some road tuning until the dyno was available, then the dealer tuned it. I'll have to download the current tune in the bike and compare it with my saved tunes.
  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Aug 2020 08:24 AM

    Fair dink Gregg, completely opposite to what I've seen, go figure, you sure the techs that originally flashed the tune didn't turn them off?

    Used a few of the said tune builders tunes, went another way each time, there is no substitute for good data, don't see how you can sit in a chair and invent calibrations that are going to be accurate or even close for that matter, sure you offer suggestions that might stop it popping or make it start easier but it's not tuned to my way of thinking.
    Leachy, limiter is wherever it was set either by whoever flashed it in in or what the tune was made with, you got a laptop? If you do download the the SE software, pull the cal off the vci and have a gander, it isn't rocket science once you get into it.

    Quoting Retroman on 05 Aug 2020 02:01 AM

    Nah mate you didn't use this guys tunes. He did all the Dyno work for a 5 Harley dealership chain across his home state.

    He had saved every tune he had ever done , bike model year/engine/cam/exhaust. All the way back to 2002

    I told him what I had to work on coming in , Andrews cam , 2:1 supertrapp etc etc and invaraiably he had a similar/exact same build in his file.

    They always worked really well. The "mostest favourite" was for various stage 1 builds with V&H popping MOFOS than most Aussie dealers fit !

    He had it down pat , part throttle and throttle overrun changes to suit. AND he only ever sent them to me as far as I know.

    I sent him "Aussie" Harley T shirts with 'Roos and Koalas and the like.

    AND if you look at many cals for 103's say 2013 and younger , the stage 1 cals in the Supertuner pro calibration list are "toggled off".

    For example , look up 357SDQ001-00 , 2012 -2017 1690 stage 1 , and the ACR's are toggled off , I kid you not. Even in the latest software.

    I have come across dozens and dozens of bikes with this and similar calibrations , many "toggled off" as they come. ALL dealer reflashed when new.

    I have the most common/popular ones "toggled on" and saved as 357SDQ001-ACRon-00

    Quoting Smokey61 on 05 Aug 2020 02:59 AM


    I used a canned tune for stage 2 103 with SE204 cams, had ACR off, I did some road tuning until the dyno was available, then the dealer tuned it. I'll have to download the current tune in the bike and compare it with my saved tunes.

    Smokey, was there a big difference after it going on the dyno. Id like to get mine done but not really an option for me at the moment. Ill buy the cable and see how mine has been setup.
     
  • Smokey61
    Smokey61
    4 years ago
    Quoting Retroman on 05 Aug 2020 02:01 AM

    Nah mate you didn't use this guys tunes. He did all the Dyno work for a 5 Harley dealership chain across his home state.

    He had saved every tune he had ever done , bike model year/engine/cam/exhaust. All the way back to 2002

    I told him what I had to work on coming in , Andrews cam , 2:1 supertrapp etc etc and invaraiably he had a similar/exact same build in his file.

    They always worked really well. The "mostest favourite" was for various stage 1 builds with V&H popping MOFOS than most Aussie dealers fit !

    He had it down pat , part throttle and throttle overrun changes to suit. AND he only ever sent them to me as far as I know.

    I sent him "Aussie" Harley T shirts with 'Roos and Koalas and the like.

    AND if you look at many cals for 103's say 2013 and younger , the stage 1 cals in the Supertuner pro calibration list are "toggled off".

    For example , look up 357SDQ001-00 , 2012 -2017 1690 stage 1 , and the ACR's are toggled off , I kid you not. Even in the latest software.

    I have come across dozens and dozens of bikes with this and similar calibrations , many "toggled off" as they come. ALL dealer reflashed when new.

    I have the most common/popular ones "toggled on" and saved as 357SDQ001-ACRon-00

    Quoting Smokey61 on 05 Aug 2020 02:59 AM


    I used a canned tune for stage 2 103 with SE204 cams, had ACR off, I did some road tuning until the dyno was available, then the dealer tuned it. I'll have to download the current tune in the bike and compare it with my saved tunes.

    Quoting leachy on 05 Aug 2020 03:12 AM

    Smokey, was there a big difference after it going on the dyno. Id like to get mine done but not really an option for me at the moment. Ill buy the cable and see how mine has been setup.

     

    Was probably running a bit rich after road tuning, seemed to drink a little heavy, fuel economy after dyno tune seems like I'm getting more per tank than stock but I haven't done the figures, this is just one old fart's seat of the pants impression. It had a ferocious launch after road tuning, that seems to have been tamed a little after the dyno tune and the top end is more than I can explore around here. Cost $450 for a dyno tune. Still pings a little if you grab a big handful from low revs. With the old Thundermax it pinged like hail on a tin roof. Roll it on, get the revs up and she's a train through the gears.
  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Sounds pretty good, I took mine out for a run for the second time after getting the SE245E fitted. Came out of a long sweeping corner and hit the rev limiter in a split second, never did that before, and it was so smooth at those revs.
    Im keen to get it dynoed but just wondering if I will actually gain more than just my piece of mind and really no extra performance. 
  • Smokey61
    Smokey61
    4 years ago
    Quoting leachy on 05 Aug 2020 07:48 AM

    Sounds pretty good, I took mine out for a run for the second time after getting the SE245E fitted. Came out of a long sweeping corner and hit the rev limiter in a split second, never did that before, and it was so smooth at those revs.

    Im keen to get it dynoed but just wondering if I will actually gain more than just my piece of mind and really no extra performance. 

    You could always get two runs done, one before tuning and one after. 

    I ended up with just over 96 HP and 109 lb/ft out of a stage 2 103" so I'm not complaining. Torque peaks at 3750 revs, HP peaks at just over 5000 revs.. 
  • FXDF08
    FXDF08
    4 years ago
    Smokey, those numbers at those revs would make it a very strretable and quick HD. Enjoy!
    I also like the description from Leachey and the 254e. Different cams as I experienced, but both good for spirited street riding. I think I need to find some cash for my 103 FXDL (or stop switching bikes ??)
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    4 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 04 Aug 2020 08:24 AM

    Fair dink Gregg, completely opposite to what I've seen, go figure, you sure the techs that originally flashed the tune didn't turn them off?

    Used a few of the said tune builders tunes, went another way each time, there is no substitute for good data, don't see how you can sit in a chair and invent calibrations that are going to be accurate or even close for that matter, sure you offer suggestions that might stop it popping or make it start easier but it's not tuned to my way of thinking.
    Leachy, limiter is wherever it was set either by whoever flashed it in in or what the tune was made with, you got a laptop? If you do download the the SE software, pull the cal off the vci and have a gander, it isn't rocket science once you get into it.

    Quoting Retroman on 05 Aug 2020 02:01 AM

    Nah mate you didn't use this guys tunes. He did all the Dyno work for a 5 Harley dealership chain across his home state.

    He had saved every tune he had ever done , bike model year/engine/cam/exhaust. All the way back to 2002

    I told him what I had to work on coming in , Andrews cam , 2:1 supertrapp etc etc and invaraiably he had a similar/exact same build in his file.

    They always worked really well. The "mostest favourite" was for various stage 1 builds with V&H popping MOFOS than most Aussie dealers fit !

    He had it down pat , part throttle and throttle overrun changes to suit. AND he only ever sent them to me as far as I know.

    I sent him "Aussie" Harley T shirts with 'Roos and Koalas and the like.

    AND if you look at many cals for 103's say 2013 and younger , the stage 1 cals in the Supertuner pro calibration list are "toggled off".

    For example , look up 357SDQ001-00 , 2012 -2017 1690 stage 1 , and the ACR's are toggled off , I kid you not. Even in the latest software.

    I have come across dozens and dozens of bikes with this and similar calibrations , many "toggled off" as they come. ALL dealer reflashed when new.

    I have the most common/popular ones "toggled on" and saved as 357SDQ001-ACRon-00

    Arr got ya, definitely a different bloke if the tunes were made on the dyno but even then I'd be tweeking them for the bike they were going in just like anything from a cal bank.
    I haven't checked through the SE Cal's to get evidence of my statement on acr's I just say what I've seen as I believe you do. I've tuned (loosely said in case a real tuner reads this) in V&H, short shots, side shots, long shots, big radius, both types, no popping when done, I gather data on the road in various scenarios, run it through different programs depending on the tuning device until it is as good as I can get it, is that how you do it?
    Anyway, I'm of the belief if you have a good dyno tuner close by then that's the place to go.
  • leachy
    leachy
    4 years ago
    Quoting FXDF08 on 05 Aug 2020 10:39 AM

    Smokey, those numbers at those revs would make it a very strretable and quick HD. Enjoy!

    I also like the description from Leachey and the 254e. Different cams as I experienced, but both good for spirited street riding. I think I need to find some cash for my 103 FXDL (or stop switching bikes ??)

    Im very happy with mine now, its just woken it up. I also have a VFR and its always been fun to ride and it feels alive, the Harley now feels like to, very responsive and willing to just run, but still very manageable at low RPM. Obviously there must be noise or emission issue otherwise HD were doing themselves a dis-service by not building an engine like this. 
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