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Arlen Ness Big Brake Kit- BEWARE !

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  • Sponge Boy
    Sponge Boy
    5 years ago
    Recently fitted the Jagged style 15" spoke mounted rotor on my Superglide.
    I didn't want the jagged/wave style rotor but there was no other choice.
    I noticed, when braking, I get a fine shudder in my front end that I never had before.
    At first I thought it was because it's new and I'd give it a chance to bed in. After quite a few Ks though, it's still there.
    I checked my head stem bearing adjustment and it was fine.
    I rode my mate's Breakout which has a hub mounted 15" rotor kit and there is no such shudder.
    On Sunday, while approaching my house, I cut the engine power and coasted for about 150 meters, applied the front brake, and felt a definite pulsation (no, I don't have ABS).
    I then had a close look at the design of the rotor hole pattern on the hub mounted rotor; the holes are the usual size and are in a staggered pattern; just like 99.9% of all motorcycle rotors.
    The holes on my rotor are very different; there are two sizes (approx 6mm and 10mm) and they are set in a radial pattern.
    I have repeatedly tried to contact Arlen Ness Inc about this but I get no customer service. 
    Very disappointing.
    I am convinced that the hole pattern on the wave style rotor is terribly wrong.
    Just in case you're wondering, the wave edge does not cause this pulsation; the pads don't contact the waves (it's just for looks).

    Has anybody else experienced this ?


    Above is my rotor

    Below is a rotor identical to my buddy's rotor on the Breakout

    IMG_1217.JPG
    IMG_1238_3.JPG
  • John.R
    John.R
    5 years ago
    Im not really following where you think the issue lies? 

    All those bolts are axial. 

    "Buttons" connect the outer rotor to the disc center. 

    Does your rotor have much/any play between those buttons?

    Floating rotors can varyin play depending on designs (my BMW S1KRR has spring washers in the bottons so there is no play felt, my brand new galfer rotors can visible play to the point you can rattle them).
    One trick ive seen people use is to tap the rotor with a mallet to try and free up the botton so that its floating properly. If it was me, id probably tap it radially and not from the side for fear of tweakin the rotor.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting John.R on 18 Jun 2019 01:41 AMedited: 18 Jun 2019 01:42 AM

    Im not really following where you think the issue lies? 


    All those bolts are axial. 

    "Buttons" connect the outer rotor to the disc center. 

    Does your rotor have much/any play between those buttons?

    Floating rotors can varyin play depending on designs (my BMW S1KRR has spring washers in the bottons so there is no play felt, my brand new galfer rotors can visible play to the point you can rattle them).
    One trick ive seen people use is to tap the rotor with a mallet to try and free up the botton so that its floating properly. If it was me, id probably tap it radially and not from the side for fear of tweakin the rotor.

    John  i can see there is no "disc centre" the buttons are not  of the type i know you mean. They are in fact the bolts that fix the disc to the hub and only contact the disc in half a hole! 
  • tussuck
    tussuck
    5 years ago

    See, I think the OP is talking about the actual holes drilled into the rotor itself.  On the OEM one the holes are offset to each other so none actually line up wrt a line from the axle outwards.  While the ness ones have the holes drilled in line to the axle, such that you end up with 2 hole lined up all the time.

    No idea if its the cause or not, but the hole pattern on the Ness certainly leaves bugger all disk surface in play when compared to the factory setup.

  • John.R
    John.R
    5 years ago

    Tussuck, ur a smart cookie. I see what hes talking about now, the 6mm and 10mm measurements make sense now.

    I guess it comes down to how much its pulsing. Once per wheel revolution (like one of the 5 mounts is tweaked or something) vs 30-40 pulses per revolution lol

  • Far Canal
    Far Canal
    5 years ago
    Quoting John.R on 18 Jun 2019 01:41 AMedited: 18 Jun 2019 01:42 AM

    Im not really following where you think the issue lies? 


    All those bolts are axial. 

    "Buttons" connect the outer rotor to the disc center. 

    Does your rotor have much/any play between those buttons?

    Floating rotors can varyin play depending on designs (my BMW S1KRR has spring washers in the bottons so there is no play felt, my brand new galfer rotors can visible play to the point you can rattle them).
    One trick ive seen people use is to tap the rotor with a mallet to try and free up the botton so that its floating properly. If it was me, id probably tap it radially and not from the side for fear of tweakin the rotor.

    Quoting paulybronco on 18 Jun 2019 02:05 AM

    John  i can see there is no "disc centre" the buttons are not  of the type i know you mean. They are in fact the bolts that fix the disc to the hub and only contact the disc in half a hole! 

    If the top picture is sponge boys bike then I'm with Pauly on this. There is no disc centre and it does not look like a floating disc. In fact when you look at how much "machined" part of the cast spokes that disc has to fasten to it looks like a design brain fade.
    Don't reckon the drilling pattern of the holes has anything to do with it.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting John.R on 18 Jun 2019 01:41 AMedited: 18 Jun 2019 01:42 AM

    Im not really following where you think the issue lies? 


    All those bolts are axial. 

    "Buttons" connect the outer rotor to the disc center. 

    Does your rotor have much/any play between those buttons?

    Floating rotors can varyin play depending on designs (my BMW S1KRR has spring washers in the bottons so there is no play felt, my brand new galfer rotors can visible play to the point you can rattle them).
    One trick ive seen people use is to tap the rotor with a mallet to try and free up the botton so that its floating properly. If it was me, id probably tap it radially and not from the side for fear of tweakin the rotor.

    Quoting paulybronco on 18 Jun 2019 02:05 AM

    John  i can see there is no "disc centre" the buttons are not  of the type i know you mean. They are in fact the bolts that fix the disc to the hub and only contact the disc in half a hole! 

    Quoting Far Canal on 18 Jun 2019 07:32 AMedited: 18 Jun 2019 07:33 AM

    If the top picture is sponge boys bike then I'm with Pauly on this. There is no disc centre and it does not look like a floating disc. In fact when you look at how much "machined" part of the cast spokes that disc has to fasten to it looks like a design brain fade.
    Don't reckon the drilling pattern of the holes has anything to do with it.

    Cheers i thought i was the only one to see that! It seems a poor design as if each bolt is not exactly the same tension and the disc is a non floater the disc will not run true causing what the OP complains about
  • Far Canal
    Far Canal
    5 years ago
    Yep looks like a shit part to me, I'd be asking for a refund.
    "Performance Machine" might make a larger than standard brake rotor for your bike Spongy, plus you can get 6 piston calipers from them which will work fine with your standard master cylinder.
  • John.R
    John.R
    5 years ago
    Isnt that how those discs are fastened stock though? Same as VROD etc, the stock discs look the same.

    They could still be depending on how they're actually fastened. If it pinch the disc it wouldn't be good (which is what i suspect has happened), if it simply captures it, it could leave it with room to float.

    SmartSelect_20190618-193213_Chrome.jpg
  • Far Canal
    Far Canal
    5 years ago
    Maybe they are John, I don't know. Just looks like a half arsed (even quarter arsed) way of attaching a disc to a wheel to me. Might as well give you a tub of "Perkins paste" to glue them on with to be sure of a solid fix.
    Looking at Spongys second picture, which I guess is the 15 inch hub mounted rotor on his mates Breakout. That looks good and solid.Plus it has the floating buttons.
  • Sponge Boy
    Sponge Boy
    5 years ago
    Quoting John.R on 18 Jun 2019 01:41 AMedited: 18 Jun 2019 01:42 AM

    Im not really following where you think the issue lies? 


    All those bolts are axial. 

    "Buttons" connect the outer rotor to the disc center. 

    Does your rotor have much/any play between those buttons?

    Floating rotors can varyin play depending on designs (my BMW S1KRR has spring washers in the bottons so there is no play felt, my brand new galfer rotors can visible play to the point you can rattle them).
    One trick ive seen people use is to tap the rotor with a mallet to try and free up the botton so that its floating properly. If it was me, id probably tap it radially and not from the side for fear of tweakin the rotor.

    My rotor is the spoke mounted version shown at top. No buttons as such. The rotor is floating and there is a spring washer between each bolt and the rotor.
    None of that is the issue. The issue is that the cross drilled holes in the rotor are done in a radial design rather than staggered. Every ti,e a pair of holes or a large hole passes the pads it creates a pulse (grabs a little more). If the holes were staggered as in the original OEM rotor it wouldn't be that obvious.
  • Sponge Boy
    Sponge Boy
    5 years ago
    Quoting tussuck on 18 Jun 2019 02:51 AMedited: 18 Jun 2019 02:52 AM

    See, I think the OP is talking about the actual holes drilled into the rotor itself.  On the OEM one the holes are offset to each other so none actually line up wrt a line from the axle outwards.  While the ness ones have the holes drilled in line to the axle, such that you end up with 2 hole lined up all the time.

    No idea if its the cause or not, but the hole pattern on the Ness certainly leaves bugger all disk surface in play when compared to the factory setup.

    You're on the right track
  • Ken in Cairns
    Ken in Cairns
    5 years ago
    The holes look square and sharp edged in the pics, no shamfer or counter sink at all
    Just wondering if if they are a little burred or something. Its like the edge of the pads is getting hit by the holes as they pass by.
    Is that what you think is going on Sponge Boy?

  • tussuck
    tussuck
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ken in Cairns on 18 Jun 2019 10:57 PMedited: 18 Jun 2019 10:59 PM

    The holes look square and sharp edged in the pics, no shamfer or counter sink at all

    Just wondering if if they are a little burred or something. Its like the edge of the pads is getting hit by the holes as they pass by.
    Is that what you think is going on Sponge Boy?

    That's a good point.  I used to slightly champher the holes on my old Evo back in the day.
  • Sponge Boy
    Sponge Boy
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ken in Cairns on 18 Jun 2019 10:57 PMedited: 18 Jun 2019 10:59 PM

    The holes look square and sharp edged in the pics, no shamfer or counter sink at all

    Just wondering if if they are a little burred or something. Its like the edge of the pads is getting hit by the holes as they pass by.
    Is that what you think is going on Sponge Boy?

    Exactly !!!
    Next time the wheel comes off (soon) I will be chamfering the holes.
    I reckon it must be chewing up my pads too
  • Sponge Boy
    Sponge Boy
    5 years ago
    Quoting John.R on 18 Jun 2019 09:37 AM

    Isnt that how those discs are fastened stock though? Same as VROD etc, the stock discs look the same.

    They could still be depending on how they're actually fastened. If it pinch the disc it wouldn't be good (which is what i suspect has happened), if it simply captures it, it could leave it with room to float.

    SmartSelect_20190618-193213_Chrome.jpg
    It's not about how the disc is fastened. The disc fits fine and has a decent float; just how it's meant to be
  • John.R
    John.R
    5 years ago
    So does the pulse correlate with the holes? 

    Not the best at the maths, but looking at your rotor, you've got 6 double drilled holes per segment, 5 segments so 30 pulses per wheel spin. 

    At 50kmh you're wheel's spinning around 7 times a second? so you're pulse would be 210 odd pulses per second, which I doubt you could even feel as it'd be such a buzz (think alloy TIG welding) 

    This is 250hz as an example.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFz9rZjCFkQ

    If a single point on the rotor was the issue, like a binding point, or a warp, or a rough edge on one of the holes, you'd have 1 pulse per rotation, 7 pulses per second, or 420 pulses per minute, which would feel like this metronome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrE9lO2IBBM

    So what how fine of a pulse are we talking here?
  • Sponge Boy
    Sponge Boy
    5 years ago
    Quoting John.R on 19 Jun 2019 12:17 PMedited: 19 Jun 2019 12:19 PM

    So does the pulse correlate with the holes? 

    Not the best at the maths, but looking at your rotor, you've got 6 double drilled holes per segment, 5 segments so 30 pulses per wheel spin. 


    At 50kmh you're wheel's spinning around 7 times a second? so you're pulse would be 210 odd pulses per second, which I doubt you could even feel as it'd be such a buzz (think alloy TIG welding) 

    This is 250hz as an example.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFz9rZjCFkQ

    If a single point on the rotor was the issue, like a binding point, or a warp, or a rough edge on one of the holes, you'd have 1 pulse per rotation, 7 pulses per second, or 420 pulses per minute, which would feel like this metronome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrE9lO2IBBM

    So what how fine of a pulse are we talking here?

    Feels more like the metronome Professor
  • Ken in Cairns
    Ken in Cairns
    5 years ago
    Due to the design checking for runout with a dial gauge will be difficult, buy that would be my next move, you could try a straight edge but qould need to remove the wheel. Maybe the disc isnt sitting  100 % flat on the hub. 
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ken in Cairns on 21 Jun 2019 12:15 AM

    Due to the design checking for runout with a dial gauge will be difficult, buy that would be my next move, you could try a straight edge but qould need to remove the wheel. Maybe the disc isnt sitting  100 % flat on the hub. 

    Agree Ken , thinking the way its mounted its difficult to ensure each bolt has enough surface area to pull the disc flush with the hub
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