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Lost torque after a stage 2 on my 114 BO

  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    I'm still learning and trying to get my head around dyno tunes and stage upgrades so be easy on me here. Bought my new 2019, 114 BO last week and got the S&S 475 cam (stage 2) put in and a dyno. Stock 114 I believe has 90hp and I gained 19hp to 109hp. But a stock 114 has 119 ft-lb and with my upgrade, I actually lost 4 ft-lb to 115. So is this normal?? 19hp gain seems like shit loads but losing in torque seems weird.
  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Hi Matho
    What pipes are you running?
    I guess you know that the S&S 475 is a power cam and looking at the intake closing times, I’m surprised you only lost 4 ft-lb torque.
    Can you post your Dyno sheet. It might be that the torque albeit lower is spread over a wider rev band which would be great.
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago


    Screen Shot 2019-06-10 at 8.25.57 pm.png
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ratbob on 10 Jun 2019 10:16 AM

    Hi Matho

    What pipes are you running?
    I guess you know that the S&S 475 is a power cam and looking at the intake closing times, I’m surprised you only lost 4 ft-lb torque.
    Can you post your Dyno sheet. It might be that the torque albeit lower is spread over a wider rev band which would be great.

    They are only AM slip ons with stock headers. Dont get me wrong, I am stoked with what I got, I'm just trying to learn a bit more about all of this.
  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Thanks for posting the chart. Looks pretty good for a power cam. By AM mufflers do you mean After Market or a brand initialled AM that I’m not familiar with? 
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ratbob on 10 Jun 2019 10:47 AM

    Thanks for posting the chart. Looks pretty good for a power cam. By AM mufflers do you mean After Market or a brand initialled AM that I’m not familiar with? 

    Thanks Ratbob. By aftermarket I mean, Geelong HD modify the stock mufflers by shortening them and putting different baffles in, they do this with every new bike sold. Apparently, a mech engineer there designed them. I know its crude but I love the sound they produce and they will do for now.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ratbob on 10 Jun 2019 10:47 AM

    Thanks for posting the chart. Looks pretty good for a power cam. By AM mufflers do you mean After Market or a brand initialled AM that I’m not familiar with? 

    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 10:53 AM

    Thanks Ratbob. By aftermarket I mean, Geelong HD modify the stock mufflers by shortening them and putting different baffles in, they do this with every new bike sold. Apparently, a mech engineer there designed them. I know its crude but I love the sound they produce and they will do for now.

    Think you may have pointed the finger right there....my feeling its them mufflers
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ratbob on 10 Jun 2019 10:47 AM

    Thanks for posting the chart. Looks pretty good for a power cam. By AM mufflers do you mean After Market or a brand initialled AM that I’m not familiar with? 

    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 10:53 AM

    Thanks Ratbob. By aftermarket I mean, Geelong HD modify the stock mufflers by shortening them and putting different baffles in, they do this with every new bike sold. Apparently, a mech engineer there designed them. I know its crude but I love the sound they produce and they will do for now.

    Quoting paulybronco on 10 Jun 2019 10:57 AM

    Think you may have pointed the finger right there....my feeling its them mufflers

    I'm a bit reluctant to get the V&H radius or short shots etc as it will make the bike obnoxiously loud as its super loud as it is. But you think if I get Rinehart slip on or similar I may get better a reading even with the torque? But i suppose that would be a gamble as it may do nothing.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 10:53 AM

    Thanks Ratbob. By aftermarket I mean, Geelong HD modify the stock mufflers by shortening them and putting different baffles in, they do this with every new bike sold. Apparently, a mech engineer there designed them. I know its crude but I love the sound they produce and they will do for now.

    Quoting paulybronco on 10 Jun 2019 10:57 AM

    Think you may have pointed the finger right there....my feeling its them mufflers

    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 11:08 AMedited: 10 Jun 2019 11:22 AM

    I'm a bit reluctant to get the V&H radius or short shots etc as it will make the bike obnoxiously loud as its super loud as it is. But you think if I get Rinehart slip on or similar I may get better a reading even with the torque? But i suppose that would be a gamble as it may do nothing.

    Its the combination of all the components, you may gain tq but loose hp with a different combo. If it rides well dont chase a perfect graph 
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    Quoting paulybronco on 10 Jun 2019 10:57 AM

    Think you may have pointed the finger right there....my feeling its them mufflers

    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 11:08 AMedited: 10 Jun 2019 11:22 AM

    I'm a bit reluctant to get the V&H radius or short shots etc as it will make the bike obnoxiously loud as its super loud as it is. But you think if I get Rinehart slip on or similar I may get better a reading even with the torque? But i suppose that would be a gamble as it may do nothing.

    Quoting paulybronco on 10 Jun 2019 11:52 AM

    Its the combination of all the components, you may gain tq but loose hp with a different combo. If it rides well dont chase a perfect graph 

    Yeah I hear ya Pauly. I’m pretty stoked with what I got. This is my 4th harley and the first time I ever went more than stage one. I love the aggressive sound it has especially at idle.
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Not to focus too much on numbers but more on curve shape I would hazard, as PB pointed, your mufflers are most likely to blame for the dip, this 475 cam, in all the graphs I've seen of it has that early plateau before lift off, fun cam from my perspective. You don't ride a dyno sheet though so if it feels great all's well :)


    IMG_20190610_223219_01.jpg
    IMG_20190610_223311_01.png
  • Krash Kinkade
    Krash Kinkade
    5 years ago
    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 10:53 AM

    Thanks Ratbob. By aftermarket I mean, Geelong HD modify the stock mufflers by shortening them and putting different baffles in, they do this with every new bike sold. Apparently, a mech engineer there designed them. I know its crude but I love the sound they produce and they will do for now.

    Quoting paulybronco on 10 Jun 2019 10:57 AM

    Think you may have pointed the finger right there....my feeling its them mufflers

    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 11:08 AMedited: 10 Jun 2019 11:22 AM

    I'm a bit reluctant to get the V&H radius or short shots etc as it will make the bike obnoxiously loud as its super loud as it is. But you think if I get Rinehart slip on or similar I may get better a reading even with the torque? But i suppose that would be a gamble as it may do nothing.

    matho I like stock header's and can't see a problem with improving the flow of the stock slip on's if done right. I think could get a good gain with an improved tune.
    been told EBT a top tuner & good dyno. but up to you, just what I think.
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    Quoting paulybronco on 10 Jun 2019 10:57 AM

    Think you may have pointed the finger right there....my feeling its them mufflers

    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 11:08 AMedited: 10 Jun 2019 11:22 AM

    I'm a bit reluctant to get the V&H radius or short shots etc as it will make the bike obnoxiously loud as its super loud as it is. But you think if I get Rinehart slip on or similar I may get better a reading even with the torque? But i suppose that would be a gamble as it may do nothing.

    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 10 Jun 2019 11:31 PM

    matho I like stock header's and can't see a problem with improving the flow of the stock slip on's if done right. I think could get a good gain with an improved tune.

    been told EBT a top tuner & good dyno. but up to you, just what I think.

    Hey KK. Yeah, the stock headers haven't got the cat convert in the BO and are in the stock mufflers. So when Geelong HD gut the mufflers they take the cat with them. The mufflers do give a nice deep sounding growl which I love. I've ordered the satin black heat shields for the headers and slip ons so I think they'll look good. All in all, I'm happy with what I've got and have shit loads more power than I'm normally used to. I'm still learning about all this and mostly just interested in stages and dyno's etc.
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting matho1961 on 10 Jun 2019 11:08 AMedited: 10 Jun 2019 11:22 AM

    I'm a bit reluctant to get the V&H radius or short shots etc as it will make the bike obnoxiously loud as its super loud as it is. But you think if I get Rinehart slip on or similar I may get better a reading even with the torque? But i suppose that would be a gamble as it may do nothing.

    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 10 Jun 2019 11:31 PM

    matho I like stock header's and can't see a problem with improving the flow of the stock slip on's if done right. I think could get a good gain with an improved tune.

    been told EBT a top tuner & good dyno. but up to you, just what I think.

    Quoting matho1961 on 11 Jun 2019 12:03 AMedited: 11 Jun 2019 12:07 AM

    Hey KK. Yeah, the stock headers haven't got the cat convert in the BO and are in the stock mufflers. So when Geelong HD gut the mufflers they take the cat with them. The mufflers do give a nice deep sounding growl which I love. I've ordered the satin black heat shields for the headers and slip ons so I think they'll look good. All in all, I'm happy with what I've got and have shit loads more power than I'm normally used to. I'm still learning about all this and mostly just interested in stages and dyno's etc.

    if dyno numbers are your thing then you need to address the mufflers and get a better tune, I don't know Col or anything about his mufflers except that you said they sound good, V&H Hi-Output mufflers on a bagger sound awesome but they completely stuff the bottom end torque, my point is that a muffler can sound great without actually being great, performance wise anyway, the mufflers may be ok and it's just the tune but you need to check them.
    That graph I put up shows you what your lines should look like with the set up you have, numbers aside that's how that cam in that engine with those headers along with good mufflers and tune turns out.
  • fatbat
    fatbat
    5 years ago
    I wonder if the engineer fella who works for Geelong Harley who modified your mufflers was Paul hallum. If so I thought he’d know what he’s doing or could give you more feedback on this concern. 
  • matho1961
    matho1961
    5 years ago
    Quoting Krash Kinkade on 10 Jun 2019 11:31 PM

    matho I like stock header's and can't see a problem with improving the flow of the stock slip on's if done right. I think could get a good gain with an improved tune.

    been told EBT a top tuner & good dyno. but up to you, just what I think.

    Quoting matho1961 on 11 Jun 2019 12:03 AMedited: 11 Jun 2019 12:07 AM

    Hey KK. Yeah, the stock headers haven't got the cat convert in the BO and are in the stock mufflers. So when Geelong HD gut the mufflers they take the cat with them. The mufflers do give a nice deep sounding growl which I love. I've ordered the satin black heat shields for the headers and slip ons so I think they'll look good. All in all, I'm happy with what I've got and have shit loads more power than I'm normally used to. I'm still learning about all this and mostly just interested in stages and dyno's etc.

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 11 Jun 2019 07:14 AMedited: 11 Jun 2019 07:33 AM

    if dyno numbers are your thing then you need to address the mufflers and get a better tune, I don't know Col or anything about his mufflers except that you said they sound good, V&H Hi-Output mufflers on a bagger sound awesome but they completely stuff the bottom end torque, my point is that a muffler can sound great without actually being great, performance wise anyway, the mufflers may be ok and it's just the tune but you need to check them.

    That graph I put up shows you what your lines should look like with the set up you have, numbers aside that's how that cam in that engine with those headers along with good mufflers and tune turns out.

    Yeah i seen your figures GM and agree thats what I should be getting. Theres no tuner module involved here and they tell me my map is  now stored on their system. If i wanted it they could transfer it on a memory stick for me if I wanted it. So im not sure how it all works. So pretty much to get to your figures id need a good tuner and a good place to go to get a dyno done. I can see this becoming addictive.
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting matho1961 on 11 Jun 2019 12:03 AMedited: 11 Jun 2019 12:07 AM

    Hey KK. Yeah, the stock headers haven't got the cat convert in the BO and are in the stock mufflers. So when Geelong HD gut the mufflers they take the cat with them. The mufflers do give a nice deep sounding growl which I love. I've ordered the satin black heat shields for the headers and slip ons so I think they'll look good. All in all, I'm happy with what I've got and have shit loads more power than I'm normally used to. I'm still learning about all this and mostly just interested in stages and dyno's etc.

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 11 Jun 2019 07:14 AMedited: 11 Jun 2019 07:33 AM

    if dyno numbers are your thing then you need to address the mufflers and get a better tune, I don't know Col or anything about his mufflers except that you said they sound good, V&H Hi-Output mufflers on a bagger sound awesome but they completely stuff the bottom end torque, my point is that a muffler can sound great without actually being great, performance wise anyway, the mufflers may be ok and it's just the tune but you need to check them.

    That graph I put up shows you what your lines should look like with the set up you have, numbers aside that's how that cam in that engine with those headers along with good mufflers and tune turns out.

    Quoting matho1961 on 11 Jun 2019 08:53 AM

    Yeah i seen your figures GM and agree thats what I should be getting. Theres no tuner module involved here and they tell me my map is  now stored on their system. If i wanted it they could transfer it on a memory stick for me if I wanted it. So im not sure how it all works. So pretty much to get to your figures id need a good tuner and a good place to go to get a dyno done. I can see this becoming addictive.

    You have a tuning licence then, I think that means you own the licence and can get your bike tuned anywhere that uses PowerVision licences without having to buy another licence, you just have to pay for the tune.
    Addictive and expensive, more so when you are paying for labour as well, it's fun but :)
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