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CVO 110 twin cams, running hot

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  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Under a post about LCD temperature dip sticks, Taztiger4 posted that his stock CVO Fatbob ran hot.
    I replied that mine did also, pinging on real hot days, I claimed it was one of the bikes traits added to by the 255 cam. 
    Grease Monkey rightly suggested we’d hijacked the thread hence starting this new one on the subject. (Yes I know, cams again)

    Both Taztiger and I are running otherwise stock 110’s both with slip ons.

    I’m suggesting running an SE585 cam with a plus 4 degree key to keep the compression up and by increasing the duration help cool the engine and enable it to run up the rev range. 
    Grease Monkey didn’t think that was a great option and I’m interested to follow through on his experience and knowledge. 
    I’ve posted a pic of the results of adding the SE585 cam set with 4 degree key to an otherwise stock CVO 110 engine. (Diff exhaust) The owner reported much cooler running.
    What do you think Grease Monkey?

    C27362B6-0C4B-4F0A-980E-264933C8E8E5.jpeg
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    What! Another cam thread! Sheesh!
    Kidding, straight up these 255 cammed 110 buggas are lean from the factory, a free flowing exhaust will only make that worse, a stage one flash from the old super tuner will help but for mine they need tuning, done right they pull hard off idle, don't ping or get hot, the torque nosedives around 4 grand though, some, actually many are quite happy with that, not me though. 
    So if the only real reason you want to change that cam is to get rid of the heat and pinging get it tuned instead.

    Cams to put in them, there are a few that work well, some that loose a bit of early torque to carry it further, on this one you have put up the SE585 + 4° as an option, from that I'm taking you are not looking to wring its neck and change gears early, this chart is a 110 with decent mufflers and tune fitted with a Cycle Rama 575 cams.
    The cam shuts the intake at 35° so it really doesn't loose much comp, blue line is 255's, red CR575, similar shape to the graph you posted. Not saying this what you should do, it's just a discussion.


    CCF06032010_00000.jpg
  • taztiger4
    taztiger4
    5 years ago
    thoughts on best tuner nowadays ?, just looking to get it cooler, super performance aint my lot anymore !!
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:21 AM

    thoughts on best tuner nowadays ?, just looking to get it cooler, super performance aint my lot anymore !!

    Are you going to tune it or are you planning on paying someone to do it? 
  • taztiger4
    taztiger4
    5 years ago
    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:21 AM

    thoughts on best tuner nowadays ?, just looking to get it cooler, super performance aint my lot anymore !!

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:26 AM

    Are you going to tune it or are you planning on paying someone to do it? 

    Thinking I will pay someone
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:21 AM

    thoughts on best tuner nowadays ?, just looking to get it cooler, super performance aint my lot anymore !!

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:26 AM

    Are you going to tune it or are you planning on paying someone to do it? 

    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:30 AM

    Thinking I will pay someone

    What state/city are you in? We can try and find you a good one. Go with the tuner they want to use.
  • taztiger4
    taztiger4
    5 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:26 AM

    Are you going to tune it or are you planning on paying someone to do it? 

    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:30 AM

    Thinking I will pay someone

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:33 AM

    What state/city are you in? We can try and find you a good one. Go with the tuner they want to use.

    Melbourne
    cheers
  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:30 AM

    Thinking I will pay someone

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:33 AM

    What state/city are you in? We can try and find you a good one. Go with the tuner they want to use.

    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:42 AM

    Melbourne

    cheers

    Eastern Big Twin in Pakenham are a sponsor, they tune with PowerVision, you would be looking at about $200 for the licence and about $600 for the tune, don't quote me on that but that's about the going rate, if you want to go a bit out of your way Lushy is in Victor Harbour, he does a top notch job.
  • taztiger4
    taztiger4
    5 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:33 AM

    What state/city are you in? We can try and find you a good one. Go with the tuner they want to use.

    Quoting taztiger4 on 22 Apr 2019 10:42 AM

    Melbourne

    cheers

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 10:51 AM

    Eastern Big Twin in Pakenham are a sponsor, they tune with PowerVision, you would be looking at about $200 for the licence and about $600 for the tune, don't quote me on that but that's about the going rate, if you want to go a bit out of your way Lushy is in Victor Harbour, he does a top notch job.

    cheers, appreciate the help
  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 08:31 AM

    What! Another cam thread! Sheesh!

    Kidding, straight up these 255 cammed 110 buggas are lean from the factory, a free flowing exhaust will only make that worse, a stage one flash from the old super tuner will help but for mine they need tuning, done right they pull hard off idle, don't ping or get hot, the torque nosedives around 4 grand though, some, actually many are quite happy with that, not me though. 
    So if the only real reason you want to change that cam is to get rid of the heat and pinging get it tuned instead.

    Cams to put in them, there are a few that work well, some that loose a bit of early torque to carry it further, on this one you have put up the SE585 + 4° as an option, from that I'm taking you are not looking to wring its neck and change gears early, this chart is a 110 with decent mufflers and tune fitted with a Cycle Rama 575 cams.
    The cam shuts the intake at 35° so it really doesn't loose much comp, blue line is 255's, red CR575, similar shape to the graph you posted. Not saying this what you should do, it's just a discussion.


    CCF06032010_00000.jpg
    Thanks GM, you’re right I haven’t had the 110 on a dyno, I’m using a tune from the SE software for an 1800 with open air intake and exhaust. It could be lean but it only does 180ks per tank so to me it’s thirsty but does that mean it isn’t lean? I’m in SA so when I decide on engine config I’ll visit Lushy.
    I see the SE and CR cams are similar. 
    SE255 .556   6 25 48  7 212 235
    CR576 .575 15 35 49   7 230 236
    Only 5 thou diff in Lift but the CR does close the exhaust somewhat earlier so yeah using a +4 degree key to lift compression wouldn’t be right but it seems to fit ok with the SE585 timing which would make it 
    I know numbers ain’t everything but as you guessed, I do prefer torque over power so maybe I’ve talked myself into the SE585. 
    Thing is, while I’m reasonably confident with the CVO valve springs and it seems reasonable to change out cam bearings, what else should be swapped out, lifters, push rods, cam plate, tensioner, oil pump? Any thoughts? 
  • brash
    brash
    5 years ago

    absolutely do the lifters, I've killed 2 sets on my 110 already. It's like they are made of cheese.


    The 255 in real life situations is a good cam IMO. It always looks sad on a dyno chart especially when compared to other cams, but something about having 115ft lb at 2500rpm just makes it a winner for the day to day ride or a blast in the hills. The bad, the heat, the cylinder pressure and the stress it can put on the lifters due to it's profile.

  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 08:31 AM

    What! Another cam thread! Sheesh!

    Kidding, straight up these 255 cammed 110 buggas are lean from the factory, a free flowing exhaust will only make that worse, a stage one flash from the old super tuner will help but for mine they need tuning, done right they pull hard off idle, don't ping or get hot, the torque nosedives around 4 grand though, some, actually many are quite happy with that, not me though. 
    So if the only real reason you want to change that cam is to get rid of the heat and pinging get it tuned instead.

    Cams to put in them, there are a few that work well, some that loose a bit of early torque to carry it further, on this one you have put up the SE585 + 4° as an option, from that I'm taking you are not looking to wring its neck and change gears early, this chart is a 110 with decent mufflers and tune fitted with a Cycle Rama 575 cams.
    The cam shuts the intake at 35° so it really doesn't loose much comp, blue line is 255's, red CR575, similar shape to the graph you posted. Not saying this what you should do, it's just a discussion.


    CCF06032010_00000.jpg
    Quoting Ratbob on 22 Apr 2019 12:21 PMedited: 22 Apr 2019 12:22 PM

    Thanks GM, you’re right I haven’t had the 110 on a dyno, I’m using a tune from the SE software for an 1800 with open air intake and exhaust. It could be lean but it only does 180ks per tank so to me it’s thirsty but does that mean it isn’t lean? I’m in SA so when I decide on engine config I’ll visit Lushy.

    I see the SE and CR cams are similar. 
    SE255 .556   6 25 48  7 212 235
    CR576 .575 15 35 49   7 230 236
    Only 5 thou diff in Lift but the CR does close the exhaust somewhat earlier so yeah using a +4 degree key to lift compression wouldn’t be right but it seems to fit ok with the SE585 timing which would make it 
    I know numbers ain’t everything but as you guessed, I do prefer torque over power so maybe I’ve talked myself into the SE585. 
    Thing is, while I’m reasonably confident with the CVO valve springs and it seems reasonable to change out cam bearings, what else should be swapped out, lifters, push rods, cam plate, tensioner, oil pump? Any thoughts? 

    If you put a plus 4 on the se585 you will get
    Int 22-32
    Ex 51-9
    Your call on that, I will just say this, if that was a great grind in those numbers you would be able to buy them, most, actually every time I've used those + or - cogs it is to imitate an existing grind, think 37's to 204's, 57's to 54's etc.
    As brash said definitely lifters, push rods is up to you, I always do, saves time and I get to set them where I want them.
    Bearings is a yep, you don't need a flash plate and pump, check the tensioner pads, chuck in new ones if needed.


  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    On the tune, 180 is lousy economy, that means it's rich at cruise most likely, could be lean on acceleration, deceleration, anywhere really, that's the point of tuning them, no one just knows, the ECM has some adjustment that it can apply but really the calibration needs to be centered so it all works together.
  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Quoting Grease Monkey on 22 Apr 2019 08:31 AM

    What! Another cam thread! Sheesh!

    Kidding, straight up these 255 cammed 110 buggas are lean from the factory, a free flowing exhaust will only make that worse, a stage one flash from the old super tuner will help but for mine they need tuning, done right they pull hard off idle, don't ping or get hot, the torque nosedives around 4 grand though, some, actually many are quite happy with that, not me though. 
    So if the only real reason you want to change that cam is to get rid of the heat and pinging get it tuned instead.

    Cams to put in them, there are a few that work well, some that loose a bit of early torque to carry it further, on this one you have put up the SE585 + 4° as an option, from that I'm taking you are not looking to wring its neck and change gears early, this chart is a 110 with decent mufflers and tune fitted with a Cycle Rama 575 cams.
    The cam shuts the intake at 35° so it really doesn't loose much comp, blue line is 255's, red CR575, similar shape to the graph you posted. Not saying this what you should do, it's just a discussion.


    CCF06032010_00000.jpg
    Quoting Ratbob on 22 Apr 2019 12:21 PMedited: 22 Apr 2019 12:22 PM

    Thanks GM, you’re right I haven’t had the 110 on a dyno, I’m using a tune from the SE software for an 1800 with open air intake and exhaust. It could be lean but it only does 180ks per tank so to me it’s thirsty but does that mean it isn’t lean? I’m in SA so when I decide on engine config I’ll visit Lushy.

    I see the SE and CR cams are similar. 
    SE255 .556   6 25 48  7 212 235
    CR576 .575 15 35 49   7 230 236
    Only 5 thou diff in Lift but the CR does close the exhaust somewhat earlier so yeah using a +4 degree key to lift compression wouldn’t be right but it seems to fit ok with the SE585 timing which would make it 
    I know numbers ain’t everything but as you guessed, I do prefer torque over power so maybe I’ve talked myself into the SE585. 
    Thing is, while I’m reasonably confident with the CVO valve springs and it seems reasonable to change out cam bearings, what else should be swapped out, lifters, push rods, cam plate, tensioner, oil pump? Any thoughts? 

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 23 Apr 2019 08:11 AM

    If you put a plus 4 on the se585 you will get

    Int 22-32
    Ex 51-9
    Your call on that, I will just say this, if that was a great grind in those numbers you would be able to buy them, most, actually every time I've used those + or - cogs it is to imitate an existing grind, think 37's to 204's, 57's to 54's etc.
    As brash said definitely lifters, push rods is up to you, I always do, saves time and I get to set them where I want them.
    Bearings is a yep, you don't need a flash plate and pump, check the tensioner pads, chuck in new ones if needed.


    Thanks mate, you’re right on the timings, I subtracted on the opening as well, duh.  
    I’ll replace the lifters, stick with hydraulic and may as well replace the tensioners regardless while it’s open. 
    Cam? Still thinking.

  • Grease Monkey
    Grease Monkey
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ratbob on 22 Apr 2019 12:21 PMedited: 22 Apr 2019 12:22 PM

    Thanks GM, you’re right I haven’t had the 110 on a dyno, I’m using a tune from the SE software for an 1800 with open air intake and exhaust. It could be lean but it only does 180ks per tank so to me it’s thirsty but does that mean it isn’t lean? I’m in SA so when I decide on engine config I’ll visit Lushy.

    I see the SE and CR cams are similar. 
    SE255 .556   6 25 48  7 212 235
    CR576 .575 15 35 49   7 230 236
    Only 5 thou diff in Lift but the CR does close the exhaust somewhat earlier so yeah using a +4 degree key to lift compression wouldn’t be right but it seems to fit ok with the SE585 timing which would make it 
    I know numbers ain’t everything but as you guessed, I do prefer torque over power so maybe I’ve talked myself into the SE585. 
    Thing is, while I’m reasonably confident with the CVO valve springs and it seems reasonable to change out cam bearings, what else should be swapped out, lifters, push rods, cam plate, tensioner, oil pump? Any thoughts? 

    Quoting Grease Monkey on 23 Apr 2019 08:11 AM

    If you put a plus 4 on the se585 you will get

    Int 22-32
    Ex 51-9
    Your call on that, I will just say this, if that was a great grind in those numbers you would be able to buy them, most, actually every time I've used those + or - cogs it is to imitate an existing grind, think 37's to 204's, 57's to 54's etc.
    As brash said definitely lifters, push rods is up to you, I always do, saves time and I get to set them where I want them.
    Bearings is a yep, you don't need a flash plate and pump, check the tensioner pads, chuck in new ones if needed.


    Quoting Ratbob on 23 Apr 2019 09:00 AM

    Thanks mate, you’re right on the timings, I subtracted on the opening as well, duh.  

    I’ll replace the lifters, stick with hydraulic and may as well replace the tensioners regardless while it’s open. 
    Cam? Still thinking.

    That graph you put up looks ok but in saying that Bob is one the top tuners alive.
  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Quoting brash on 22 Apr 2019 10:36 PM

    absolutely do the lifters, I've killed 2 sets on my 110 already. It's like they are made of cheese.


    The 255 in real life situations is a good cam IMO. It always looks sad on a dyno chart especially when compared to other cams, but something about having 115ft lb at 2500rpm just makes it a winner for the day to day ride or a blast in the hills. The bad, the heat, the cylinder pressure and the stress it can put on the lifters due to it's profile.

    Hi Brash, I too enjoy riding with the 255s but the ball roasting heat gets overbearing in summer, especially at the lights, then the bugger starts pinging. I turned on the EITMS for a while but hated it.

    Two sets of lifters in your 110 seems extreme, how many Ks between sets?
  • brash
    brash
    5 years ago
    Quoting brash on 22 Apr 2019 10:36 PM

    absolutely do the lifters, I've killed 2 sets on my 110 already. It's like they are made of cheese.


    The 255 in real life situations is a good cam IMO. It always looks sad on a dyno chart especially when compared to other cams, but something about having 115ft lb at 2500rpm just makes it a winner for the day to day ride or a blast in the hills. The bad, the heat, the cylinder pressure and the stress it can put on the lifters due to it's profile.

    Quoting Ratbob on 23 Apr 2019 09:13 AM

    Hi Brash, I too enjoy riding with the 255s but the ball roasting heat gets overbearing in summer, especially at the lights, then the bugger starts pinging. I turned on the EITMS for a while but hated it.


    Two sets of lifters in your 110 seems extreme, how many Ks between sets?

    yeah in summer it does get unbearable, I've only ever had cylinder shutdown occur once for me.

    The lifter issue is a well known one, 2 sets in 10,000km's! Set number 3 is treating me well so far. Thank god for warranty.

  • Ratbob
    Ratbob
    5 years ago
    Quoting brash on 22 Apr 2019 10:36 PM

    absolutely do the lifters, I've killed 2 sets on my 110 already. It's like they are made of cheese.


    The 255 in real life situations is a good cam IMO. It always looks sad on a dyno chart especially when compared to other cams, but something about having 115ft lb at 2500rpm just makes it a winner for the day to day ride or a blast in the hills. The bad, the heat, the cylinder pressure and the stress it can put on the lifters due to it's profile.

    Quoting Ratbob on 23 Apr 2019 09:13 AM

    Hi Brash, I too enjoy riding with the 255s but the ball roasting heat gets overbearing in summer, especially at the lights, then the bugger starts pinging. I turned on the EITMS for a while but hated it.


    Two sets of lifters in your 110 seems extreme, how many Ks between sets?

    Quoting brash on 23 Apr 2019 09:15 PM

    yeah in summer it does get unbearable, I've only ever had cylinder shutdown occur once for me.

    The lifter issue is a well known one, 2 sets in 10,000km's! Set number 3 is treating me well so far. Thank god for warranty.

    Wow, I assume that’s not normal. My 110’s done 30,000Ks untouched to date.
    Are there any early warning signs that lifters might be on the way out?
  • brash
    brash
    5 years ago
    Quoting Ratbob on 23 Apr 2019 09:13 AM

    Hi Brash, I too enjoy riding with the 255s but the ball roasting heat gets overbearing in summer, especially at the lights, then the bugger starts pinging. I turned on the EITMS for a while but hated it.


    Two sets of lifters in your 110 seems extreme, how many Ks between sets?

    Quoting brash on 23 Apr 2019 09:15 PM

    yeah in summer it does get unbearable, I've only ever had cylinder shutdown occur once for me.

    The lifter issue is a well known one, 2 sets in 10,000km's! Set number 3 is treating me well so far. Thank god for warranty.

    Quoting Ratbob on 23 Apr 2019 11:09 PM

    Wow, I assume that’s not normal. My 110’s done 30,000Ks untouched to date.

    Are there any early warning signs that lifters might be on the way out?

    I'm one of "those guys" who does wheelies/burnouts and silly shit so it's probably a bad example to go off.

    initially will sound like a mouse stuck in the engine, a "cheep cheep" sound at idle when oil pressure is lower. When it's failed completely a "clack clack clack"

    luckily, both times the roller bearings didn't escape, cam chest disassembled, oil pump and cam were both score free and good to go. I would replace with S&S premiums next time now that my warranty is done.

  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    5 years ago
    Quoting brash on 23 Apr 2019 09:15 PM

    yeah in summer it does get unbearable, I've only ever had cylinder shutdown occur once for me.

    The lifter issue is a well known one, 2 sets in 10,000km's! Set number 3 is treating me well so far. Thank god for warranty.

    Quoting Ratbob on 23 Apr 2019 11:09 PM

    Wow, I assume that’s not normal. My 110’s done 30,000Ks untouched to date.

    Are there any early warning signs that lifters might be on the way out?

    Quoting brash on 23 Apr 2019 11:12 PM

    I'm one of "those guys" who does wheelies/burnouts and silly shit so it's probably a bad example to go off.

    initially will sound like a mouse stuck in the engine, a "cheep cheep" sound at idle when oil pressure is lower. When it's failed completely a "clack clack clack"

    luckily, both times the roller bearings didn't escape, cam chest disassembled, oil pump and cam were both score free and good to go. I would replace with S&S premiums next time now that my warranty is done.

    That "cheep cheep" noise should be better described as "cheap cheap" in reference to the quality of the std lifters. I have been very fortunate to still have my originals in after 60k and they are fine but also seen them in many bits with low klm on them
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