At what speed does counter steering take over ? At low speed we can turn bars to the direction we want to go , but at what speed does a motorcycle have to be going for the cross over to counter steering ?

About 10km/hr for most bikes, presuming you don't also shift your weight to change the centre of gravity.  It is dependant on the gyroscopic (centrifugal) force of the rotating wheels, which is dependant on their mass, diameter and rotational speed (velocity).

So , heavier bike , lower speed ? Or heavier wheels , aka Fat Boy , lower speed ? When you watch the US cops doing there course comps they are not counter steering .

I was just about to post one of those "US cop rider training videos". Thought that might have been what a street glide owner would want to emulate. Maybe they are counter steering for some of it but you are not noticing.

I don't think I was completely correct in my scientific description. Overall bike mass would also have an effect. Lean angle, turn radius and the lateral centrifugal force would also have an effect. It would be a very complex formula.

Now I'm trying to consider how you would best steer a penny farthing. Would counter steering work better at lower speeds on a penny farthing or a bmx?

It was something I was thinking of while riding on the week end .There must be a point that things change . I reckon the US cops just drop the bikes over .

I'm formulating the answer for you now, but wondering what you think they might be doing to lean or "drop the bike over"?

I reckon they just drop em in , ( lean over like fuck ) and steer em like low speed ( bars turned in direction of turn ) Must be a speed below counter steering .

So I was a bit off the mark. The rotating wheels (gyroscopic) force just add some stability to the equation. That's why sometimes you feel more in control (stable) while cornering at higher speeds.

Centripetal force, governed by the speed of the bike and the steering angle determines whether the bike "turns" one way or "tips" the other way.

Imagine riding around a really slow speed circle with the handle bars turned in the direction of your travel. Now start to accelerate while trying to maintain the circle size and you will get thrown off the bike to the outside of the circle.  That speed where you get thrown off is the change point between steering and counter steering.

Now I'm going to admit to being an idiot. Riding back from Lascelles when I didn't have any of you guys in my vicinity I was riding with no hands on the bars (cruise enabled). Unlike a push bike which you can just lean your body a bit and it changes direction, I was almost falling off the bike with no effect on the direction.

Shifting your bodyweight has very little effect on such a heavy bike. And the faster you go, the less effect. I bet none of those cops were hanging out the side of the bike like Casey Stoner? They would have been sitting bolt upright with their asses glued to the seat.

Thank you Darke , explained perfectly . Can really picture it .

The rider initiates the counter steer and it happens as soon as you are moving forward, even under 10kh/h

Without knowing it, you counter steer to keep your balance when riding very slowly, you probably don't even know your doing it.

Just leaning (dropping) the bike will make it turn, just very slowly. Try going around a corner with no hands.

 

 

 

Sorry Nomada, You can't counter steer at extremely low speeds. What they are demonstrating is a dip manuevre, with direct steering one way followed by direct steering the other way.

Here is my source, and the reason I quoted 10km/hr in the first post:
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6710

The rest of my first few posts was wrong.  

 

Edit: you may be right Nomada, when it comes to swinging the bars fully each way to ride as slow as possible.  but I need to get the push bike out tomorrow to test the theory.  

DP, glad you decided to edit your post because the argument here is the definition between counter steering and dip steering. And it does appears to cause alot of contention between riders.

Counter steer - push bars left, bike leans right, bike turn right.
Dip steering - turn bars left, bike leans right, bike is abled to be turn right.

Are you a glass 1/2 full or glass 1/2 empty guy?

Get on you bike and and give it a try. You dont even have to swing the bars fully each way. If you steer left, you'll fall off to the right at any speed unless you take some other action.

At slow speeds you counter steer to maintain an upright position.
At faster speeds you counter steer to maintain a not so upright position.

Oh, and my 1/2 glass is always full, 1/2 with liquid, 1/2 with air.

I got flat tyres on the bicycle.

Yes Nomada, I believe you have it solved.

And if the glass has any beer in it then something is wrong.

Ouch!

I'm sorry, I thought I understood the principle but I didn't. I am happy to admit (again) that I had been misleading. I also apologise for quoting my source of misinformation.

Now BB, are you sure you don't want to go back to off topic and make a similar admission regarding your claim about improper use of union funds? The one where you made the bold statements but failed to provide any detail like the name of the employer or the union. And expect us to believe you?

Looking forward to continuing the debate with you in the appropriate part of the forum.

Now Now BB, play nice.

Best thing about this forum is the difference in opinions and we should be free to have our say without being bagged out.

DP, don't apologise mate. Half the crap on line is just someone elses opinion anyway, right or wrong.

And if my glass is 1/2 empty its time for another round......................

name of employer: Gugurat NRE. name of union CFMEU. names of the two blokes i know personally that got emergency help from the CFMEU: NONE OF YOUR FUCKIN BUSINESS. i will never again debate anything with you darky cos you are a FUCKWIT.