for the twin cam models there are a lot of different set up's  aval esp on cam choice,   where people can get a little bit lost in it all , no different to on the clicker's on the late model jap bike suspension's etc  to many veriable's , when i spoke to you on the ph about this before the build we did  say 11, low something  C.Ratio , because we have run a 124 on BP 98 pump gas  @ the race track under 12 to 1  C,Ratio no worries on the 640 cam , eg 124 S&S B2 heads with race kit  include  12 to 1 S&S piston's  rec 640 cam  not a 675 they say a 675 would be slower  as & e.g. but i think & have mension  this before that for a street bike it is not good to have to much torque down low as it can load the big end up a bit esp on a heavry bike & rider combo,   on a customer's bike  i always lean on the safe side of set-up for worse case con'd's just in case  . allow for 2 up on a hot day etc , but if it is a purpose built bike thats a different story, iv'e heard the 58m.m. throttle body is a bit hard to tune , i wouldn't know i don't tune fuel injection only carb's  but i do race on them 58's , tuned by the shop   i'am to old too learn fuel injection &  i will leave it up to the younger fellow's , maybe the numbers you have are not to bad anyway , keep & eye on the engine temp  as dyno's can be a bit lean on the fuel for a air cooled street bike set up but on the hole i think it's not too bad give her a couple of thousand klm's to settle in , how much would a roadglide weigh in @ + rider,    all the best for the new year

Yes Bob we did say low 11's and that was the target but at that time it was going in a dyna, mid way through I changed to a Road Glide . Ollie got a bit gun shy and we backed it down to 10.8, Once the heads were finished, short of changing to dished pistons we were stuck other than to go to a big squish.

Whilst I might be less than satisfied with what I have I do recognize the numbers aren't bad but you don't ride a dyno number, this thing just feels wrong to me. No doubt the longer I ride it the more I will accept it but it doesn't do what I wanted it to. I need to either accept what I got or go after what I intended it to be.
Like you I leave the real tuning to those that know and Fred is more than capable of sorting it for me. Give me a distributor and a holley and that's a whole other story.
I'll sort this idle drama over the next few days and ride it while I look into finding domed pistons.

(Road Block) weighs in at 380kg, plus me at 80 + gear + mrs at 48 + gear

Well first I tried the new MAP and no joy, still idle issues but now I know it only comes on when it gets hot, 132 deg C.
Next tried the stock injectors and same thing again only when hot
Pulled the throttle body to check fit, it's boarder line.
The heads have only had a skim off them and the front cylinder has had .004" off it.
Made a few adjustments fitted up with new seals and torqued it up real careful and progressively all 4 bolts.
Still the same but only when hot, It seems to be the rear cylinder on the lower left sitting on the bike. Spraying LOTS of Areo start is the only way it shows up as a leak.

After 5 hours at it I doubt I can get it to fit any better, it's almost like the ports are a tad to big but we didn't open up the entries.
I checked as best I could with a bore scope through the injector ports and it looks OK but that was when it was cold.
Tried doing it with Blue but just got it every where. These are Harley flanges, the S&S flanges that came with it are marked F and R and are off set to the bolt center line so don't think I can use them


It could just be a bad tolerance in manufacture and I got unlucky. As was the case with the SE cases.

Any suggestions?

Be careful mixing manifolds and flanges ,S&S and SE use slightly different runner / spigot diameters ; SE large valve heads have a 1.780” head port inlet diameter with a 58 manifold inlet face of 1.740” and spigot diameter of 1.920” while the S&S typically have a 1.780” head port inlet dia with manifold inlet face of 1.750” and spigot od of 1.880” to1.890” the clamps and seals are matched accordingly ,a stock 46 tb flange will fit on a SE body but the SE flange is .050” larger than the stock one and has a different seal compression face shape to accommodate the specific seal {assy to suit SE only} as is also the case with the S&S components ,as the manifold you have came with non symmetrical early flanges and seals the best way to go is S&S seals which are thinner .265” than stock .295” and the stock 46 flange ,as S&S don’t supply symmetric inlet flanges the special seal accommodates the fit.
Port match is still checked during the custom porting process, most manifolds are manufactured smaller in the runner to accommodate mismatch so that all overhang is on the manifold side and not the head side when installed from the package as nearly all are unless porting is taking place. This has a less disruptive effect on the incoming charge than if the mismatch was the other way around.

I am using the correct flanges for the throttle body SE 58mm, The S&S engine kit came with S&S flanges which look even more mismatched to the ports.
stuffed if I know where to from here

If you are running SE58 symmetric manifold and flanges on a set of S&S heads that came with S&S non symmetric flanges the mismatch would be massive, you will need to run the S&S flanges that were supplied with the heads to maintain correct alignment, all S&S throttle bodies have a longer lateral short turn position and or long screw reliefs cast in to accommodate this .the S&S flanges are marked front and rear to suit the screw offsets machined into the respective heads.
This 124 head set if it came with early flanges supplied in the kit was capable of being installed on pre 06 engines or with the inclusion of an S&S manufactured manifold on a 06 up application ,see page 1-60 of the S&S online 2013 catalogue.
I am sorry if my last post was misleading as I was under the impression the head port/manifold face match with clamps installed had been confirmed and the situation was a minor fit up alignment issue,,, is it possible there has been a mix up with the combination of parts?. Send me a pm and I will give you a call.

Ozymax read this mate

http://www.sscycle.com/uploads/catalog/53/12%20AppendixIndex_WEB.pdf

SE Throttle SE flanges S&S Super Stock heads for 2007 up and 2006 dyna . In the kit were non symmetric flanges, they will not work, Actually Ollie rang me and told me they were the wrong ones and I needed to get the SE flanges so he could do the head flows, they were in the box with the SE throttle fortunately saved me a drive.
The SE flanges are centered on the port openings. I have been in the shed and pulled it apart again. Assembled it with out the seals and it seem correct until I fit the S&S Stealth A/C backing plate. It does not seem to be wide enough by a bees dick. When I torque up the breather bolts it moves away from the position. The manifold on the front is pivoting on the bottom edge and opens up the rear port. The flange on the front also contacts on the top against the head fin. A little machining should get it right tomorrow. I am hoping that being this close a fit is the cause of the idle problems when every thing heats up and grows.


Thanks again for your advice and suggestions.
Much appreciated
max

hope you don't have to much trouble with the inlet manifold , the air cleaner backing plate should  be free standing with no load  when bolted up , no stress on the inlet manifold ,  with the heads instead of buying new dome pistons , you could weld up the squish shelf on each side  & reshape & c.c. to 11.2 - 4 c.ratio , check valve to piston clearance  & shave heads to suit for your comp modification , dome pistons would raise comp with no squish  there would be room for the slight jump

Ozymax
The 58mm SE flanges are for the 06 dyna and all 07 heads. S&S use the early type flanges


S&S style o-rings must be used with these manifolds. S&S o-rings are slightly thinner to accommodate the larger S&S port diameter. Use of stock o-rings may cause damage. Must use H-D® intake manifold flanges pn 27059-05A (2p

the S&S flanges are off set symmetrical, they also do not fit on the SE 58mm throttle body, they do fit on the stock body but are ten no where near lining up. S&S guide also states to use 58mm, 66mm or 70mm throttle. I think they are just the wrong flanges in the box.

Daddy there is no inward pressure on the body from the backing plate but there was side ways pressure as the breather bolt holes are not perfectly centered on the heads.
I think I now have it sorted hopefully, just waiting for a reasonable hour on a Sunday morning to fire it up and see how it is this time.

Here is today's try out results.

Pulled the throttle body again and spent over an hour checking the alignment. Baking plate on and no flanges looked to be all pointing correctly. Flanges on bolts very loose, looked to be lining up.
Assembled it all started up and did seem to be idling smoother, hit 130 deg C and stumbles again just as bad was about 138 by shut down using the Areo spray from 130 and did make some difference so still seems to be some leaking.

Loaded another MAP from Joe, started up at 135 C seemed better at first but again stumbled with in a minute.
Backed out the breather bolts as the holes are not perfectly center and may be twisting things slightly started up and still stumbling
I really don't know where to from here.

Is SE 58mm Throttle with HD Flanges and seals correct for S&S Super Stock heads combination.
S&S catalog for 124 HSU says yes, What I did notice is although the ports have been set lower to allow for the taller cylinders so a stock throttle body can be used they do seem to be on the limits of distance apart, that is the throttle body has some clearance to the head face about .010" with the flanges very loose.

Dazed, Confused and frustrated

Can it be anything to do with temp ? Since it comes on right around the 130 C, from cold right through to 130 it idles fine and that takes around 8-9 minutes.

cheers
Max

Max
Give this guy a call Monday he will sort it out mate

http://www.brankobuilt.com.au/contactus.htm

Well at last I am getting some where. It is an issue with the Map calibration by the looks of it. The timing is going crazy at idle with temp rise. I have managed to get it to remain stable at 22 deg advance at idle 1050 rpm up to 127 deg C which from completely cold takes 5 minutes and only small variances from there up to 140 deg C takes another 3 1/2 minutes.
What ever the hell is going on I am not sure but after about 4 hours of data logging and map building I am just about brain dead

no it's the destination, but now after all this stuffing around I got a small exhaust leak so off comes the fucking pipes
and what is that little insert that is so small I can't read?

not the first one to say that.
I had a very clear outcome and when it don't match up I go looking for every possible thing. Was the same when I was building houses never satisfied with the result. Maybe the research isn't as good as it should be or the plan was fucked. But I also didn't stick to the plan so it was never gonna come out how I wanted. Although these dramas would have still been there probably.
Besides while I am stuffing around in the shed I'm not out riding so think about how many $$ I save in fuel costs.
A few of the HTT boys looked at the data logs and Map and all agree the calibration is corrupted. Now this could be related to the issues when I got stuck out a few weeks ago with the full throttle problem so there is some thing strange going on.
It's frustrating but rewarding as it progresses knowing I am learning something and getting closer and every thing now fits as near to perfect as it can get.

It will probably all go to shit again if I bump the compression any way.

Or it could be the brain is fucked from all the sun when I lived in the HILL

Ozy mate little challenges are how we learn, top marks for doing what you've done and i'm sure it will be better than you expected when you finish

UPDATE

after half a dozen different tunes being loaded, countless hours with a well respected tuner in the USA, several phone conversations with Tec staff at Dynojet Research USA, 20 log file exchanges, along with hours with my own tuner guy here we have got NO WHERE.
The problem still exists with the idle and only starts at 127 -129 deg C no matter what tune is loaded or if the bike is cold or warmed up.

No one has been able to suggest where to from here. I am going to take it in to HD and get them to look at the ECU for issues although I have little hope after the last time I asked them to fix an error code issue.

Finally it seems to be resolved with the help of 2 DynoJet Research tech's and 2 very smart tuners. It idled up to 145 deg C with out any issues.
We had tried previously turning off the EITMS but the problem remained. We also had the on temp for eitms set at 155 so it was well above the problem area. I would have though those 2 actions would have been enough to close it down. However there was still something going on with the ECU in this area at 127 deg C that no one has been able to quite work out. The eimts also involves the IAC and on built motors DynoJet have advised they some times require additional IAC steps be added.
The solution to my situation has been to turn off eitms, lift the on temp to 320 deg c and do some work in the IAC steps table.

There was some issue with corruption in the calibrations of the file probably from me having to build a tune from scratch with a lot of copying and pasting from other tunes.
Took a lot of investigating and trial and error and a heap of support from others which I very much appreciate.
Thank you to all those here that made a contribution to this thread, every idea was worth checking out.

All that's left is to have it re tuned in the New Year.
Thank fuck this year is almost over.

Good new Oz glad the weapon is sorted.
Have a good xmas