My bad description carbon, should have said missing not lost. The bike is good to ride, plenty are not, I agree. 295 @ 28" is pretty much the same as 175@ 10". I was trying to help BTW. :-) Back to work for me.

Hi guys,

Discussion about flow benches being different is a little inaccurate .All professionally constructed benches have a calibration procedure that is carried out at regular intervals to ensure data is accurate ,it involves basic setups as in zeroing manometers and incline scales and calibrating with a fixed orifice plate at different ranges against the manufacturers test before sale specs which I carry out at regular intervals ,as I don’t  just do my own work ,I perform test for other customers that must be empirical and accurate ,if I fudge the figures off the bench I am only fooling myself not the engine the parts will be installed on .It would be nice to have a Flowcom on my bench ,it would not make my bench any better only faster to test with.  I also have a set of heads that I did years ago that I periodically run and compare the current test numbers against to prove repeatability, they run the same numbers as they did back then so it’s safe to say the bench is accurate and repeatable.

As for throttle body size on a injected engine,port velocity is generated after the bifurcation in the manifold ,the manifold supplies a volume or capacity  of air for the port runner to draw from, a bigger throttle body does not mean more power from the engine all, it means its not getting in the way of what the engine commands ,the sizing of bodies is balanced against what the engine can use and cost for intended use  i.e.; 46mm on a stock and mildly modified  engines is pretty much matched to the engines requirements, 50mm ok for 110” in stock and minor modified form 52mm for modified 95”& 103” etc and  larger bodies would be selected against the engines potential,,also some people and shops have preferred manufacturers. .The only thing you get for nothing is air so don’t be stingy with it this also includes well sized clean, unimpeded air cleaner assy’s.  The body size selected for my engine was not a chance purchase of a random part,,, in time to come it will be asked to put in more effort.

The cam used that was manufactured by Crane a while back was given to me to test in an appropriate mule engine ,,the opportunity did not arise for a satisfactory engine to portray this product in its best light ….So I bought a Dyna ……The outcome is here .

We are looking at some minor changes in the next set if it goes ahead ,,the timing ,dynamics will remain the same the changes will only involve total lift, .590" to something like .640"to 660".

The heads and engine package is more than up to the task ,,a bit of a giveaway on this is evident on the graphs .

I have included the before test for calibration on the same dyno as the after test ,,on the road it’s how it looks on the graph {out of my league}

Have fun!

 

CF If ya want high numbers wheel it onto a different dyno and do a power run and post up that sheet

LMFAO

Only a few guys have picked up on what was going on with my dyno graph, many years ago a guy by the name of Keith Duckworth said to the effect,” if you can keep air up to a given engine, horsepower will rise with RPM” he designed one of the most famous and successful engines of all time, it was called the DFV.
My engine makes no where near the average nor total torque the 120R makes ,Peak torque is peak cylinder fill ,so if your engine is making a much higher and earlier torque curve it will have passed its peak cylinder fill range earlier than my engine [for a given air capability]which pretty much leaves my engine with more air available to it later in the rev range hence the high late number with room for even more potential to change that number again [there is a clue to that on the graph as well ],but this does not detract my engine from behaving in a very street able manner.
Also the combination of parts/assy that influence my engine’s out put is not your common catalogue selection ,as I had said earlier this was just for me, an indulgence if you will.
In a race a 120R in DR56’s capable hands would out launch my bike and sustain a higher engine spool up rate through the gears with shorter shifting than my bike would use, the chance of me meeting DR on the track is about none, we used to stand alongside different category bikes when I was involved in drag racing, our more common meeting place is over the phone, I prefer it that way unless we were catching up for a beer.
Hilly was a little out on the head costing from me but the rest he said was pretty right.
As DH says there is nothing wrong with carbureted engines, simplicity, adjustability, and the added plus of being able to get yourself out of the shit on the side of the road is valuable to a lot of guys but in my project a carburetor would not have allowed me the tune flexibility of injection.
Also if like manufacture dyno's are calibrated they will be the same for given atmospheric conditions.

I want one as well

Well spotted Ozy/Hilly ,I know I still have range in the package as the heads will take more lift easily as they didn’t plateau till .650” and still carried through to .700” without a hint of port noise or stall on the bench ,so no what if’s? There.If the cam change comes from Crane i would pop the heads of at installation time and check seat and lift preasures just to make myself happy ,as we are in a different teritory.
Ozy spotted the hp not falling off but instead flat lining a bit means it will put in more if given more, if it didn’t improve with the lift change I would go straight up 1 to 1.5 mm in the exhaust id. {300fps is good}.Also a US market rear header is beneficial.
Noticing the 185hcp ,not ccp, with a bit of settling we expect that to go to 190hcp .i definitely don’t want any more as pumping losses climb with rpm and defeat some of the potential for gain, as Hilly mentioned its all about shifting the torque to the right, not trying to spread it over the range as that would have the effect of possibly reducing the final number, as I already have enough in the lower rpm range.
When Lushy was running it up he called and asked if I had a top number in mind to see how close I could get it ,I told him I scribbled it on a bit of paper and left it with the build notes and that I wouldn’t pull it till he finished ,after a bit of goading I gave it to him ,I estimated 128 ,when he finished he called and said I was a bit out ,he sent me an email of the graph with his assessment of the bike after a 20km ride,,,If Lushy's happy I usually follow suit ,I was doing a bit of a mono old lady dance,,, after a few seconds of that ,we got back to work discussing where we could go from that point.
BUT,, do bear in mind something I said earlier, this is my bike, my project, and my invoice if I break something.
All the parts from the bottom up are all quality high duty components Crane, S&S, Zippers etc so I am quite confident the package is sound.

Mark I am sure you can get more from it and I would think if Nev says it rides nice then it would. Although I could be way wrong I don't think it would be a daily ride for some folk. But as you said your bike and built with a specific idea result in mind you have done very well. Fred tuned the hell out of mine and all we got was 118/118 SAE. not built with the same goals in mind and would ride very different to yours no doubt. Never seen many using the Crane cams but obviously they have some interesting grinds.
Currently working on a 124 but again not with the same goals, pretty sure with Ollie doing the machine work and Fred (Andrew Badcock) doing the tuning it will be as good as the components will allow, whether that aligns with my desired outcome only time will tell. It should have room to move the curve left or right depending on how it turns out if necessary.
Be interesting to see how yours matures over time with changes both mechanically and your ideas.

Can you comment on hcp and ccp differences?

cheers
max

Its hard to describe really how well it runs, It’s as Lushy said and when I got it back he was right, as a daily ride I would see no problem, I use my bike a lot for short runs during the week, picking up parts, etc and the occasional any excuse to go for a spin, that definitely wont be changing

As for Crane they have made excellent bike cams for years, single and twin cam inc shovel, they probably have not been promoted as widely as other manufacturers, but Crane has one of the biggest cam libraries in the world.

It was a discussion with the Crane distributor for Australia that lead to the set being ground, but that’s another story.

You have your planets aligned well with my old mates Ollie and Fred on board, 124’s tend to be big on torque with good spread, true tire fryers.
Ccp = cold cranking pressure ,,hcp = hot cranking pressure ,,if possible always do your leakage and pressure tests hot ,the numbers relate more accurately to the engines dynamic running condition more so than its static condition.

Well it sounds like it rides just right, Some times a bike rides different to how you imagine it should from the chart. I guess that's were the expression " You don't ride Dyno charts" came from.

Yes much better planetary alignment this time round for sure. Can't say enough good things about these 2 guys, very knowledgeable and real nice people, although I suspect the smart ass know it all types wouldn't get far with either of them. Show the appropriate level of respect and you will be way better off. All Aussie guys on board with good starting points from S&S and a few others for the ancillaries. Woods, Fueling, HPI, D&D with some help from Aussie guy Peter Grove (pipe masters) and a few others.

106 I pretty much did on my own with USA part listings, I did have a goal in mind but it was more a proof of concept build that after more than 10 years away from the spanners I could still work something together, didn't work quite how I wanted but it's close after a bit of tinkering, now it's time to build what I want.

Your right about the torque from the big inch motors and as long as the curve looks like a table top and still lets the hp flow it should do me. I don't really have a need to run it up into the 6k + rpm range. Pretty sure with a few part changes it can get more right side if I wanted.

Always did, and thought, that you should pay more attention to cranking pressure when hot myself as that is closer to what the motor really see's. Burnt hands more than once trying it but.
Don't hear people suggesting this but I suspect the ones that really know just do it that way. Actually we are pretty close to the same hcp I'm at 185 never actually recorded the CCp and never checked the leak down, don't have good enough gear any more. Think the 124 will be close to those numbers also, I know it won't be what the calculator charts that I have access to say it will be any way.

Might spend some time looking into the Cranes for knowledge and future reference. Don't have any where near the skill or knowledge to start discussing custom grinds, I'll leave that to you special guys with black art knowledge.

Appreciate your input and hope to read more from you on the board.
cheers
max

S&S own Crane now.

I know that ,these came from Crane automotive.

So where do the punters on here get a set if they desire them??

maybe possible through
cranecams.com.au

Ozymax and others,if one looks at the graphs of Marks bike over his stock engine above, you will see that this engine smokes the torque of the stocker at 2000rpm only, it is worse nowhere. I believe the bikes rideability is because the CCP is at a sensible value and the engine uses its cylinder fill chararcteristics to make power.So one can ride it with small throttle openings and it responds nicely, stroke it open and it jumps. This is not the most powerful 106 I have tuned, but it IS the nicest package. I agree with Hoody, the hp laying down in the last 350rpm or so is not due to the mechanicals , I think we have reached the limit of the exhausts. However one looks at it,adding 62hp is a fun day at the office :-) Well at least I only spent a day, guess Hoody spent a few days...

Nev in now way a criticism just my thoughts. Whilst I agree with the 106 over the stock motor statement I am guessing the stocker was a way's smaller. Looks like it was only making 86ftlb so your always going to kill that almost from idle, ok well maybe 2000. Still a great result and in no way trying to take anything away from this build, tune or considered effort. A stg 1 103 reasonably well tuned will come in at or just over 100ftlb around 3 - 3500 rpm.
On the other 106 you mention, in the right frame on the right bit of bitumen it would be a very impressive ride and if your mentioning it I doubt it was better by only 1 or 2 hp so probably closer to 140 than 130.
Yep ain't pipes a bitch, but we do have to live with in the limits for varying reasons some times unfortunately.

Regardless any bike that jumps that much is defiantly going to put a huge smile on faces and be desired by many. Whether it meets the original build intentions or not only the client/builder can answer. I know I would be over the moon with it. And for sure you had a great day at the office, not everyone finishes a day's work with that level of self achievement unfortunately.

On sensible CCP's I have had this discussion with Fred at length several times and he has very firm ideas about this area and hopefully I have heeded his words. I believe between Fred, Ollie and me we have included the flexibility to make the necessary adjustment if required. I am sure it's frustrated Ollie at times that I have been a bit stubborn on some points.
Glad I found this thread even if late in the game and appreciate the insight, might have to give Ollie a call and concede his point out of pure common sense. I was out there this morning and still banging on about this one area. I'm sure when I call him he will be saying to himself "finally he listened" haha


appreciate your involvement and contribution.
cheers
Max

Yes Nev , a couple of days of me putting it together ,a day of you gassing yourself and doing shit on a screen that looses me ,and a lot years just like a number of guys around the country doing the numbers and proving it with building and testing and testing again,,,like a few of our mates mentioned earlier we did not just arrive yesterday...

....I have already said too much about this project......


Any cam grinder in the world will put any numbers you like on a stick,,,,it's only a bunch of numbers ,,,isn't it??? ,so ,Carbon get the thinking cap on and the wallet out and show us how its done!!



You win.



Just remember mate, in cams ,if big is good ,bigger is better ,so obviously the biggest is the best,,so,, the cam that never lets the valve touch the seat is obviously the best !!! All cam lists are printed upside down ,, Some know the answer to that one..

Now you can work it out , it's all yours.

Win what? FFS
I asked questions and yourself and tuner answered them graciously, thanks to you guys for sure.
No doubt you have a handle on things, but I already knew that.
But if I believe everything I read on the net, then I'm a bigger fool than you already think I am.
Enjoy ya ride, I got one that'll smoke it already. Lol. Just joking with ya

 Hi Lushy Just wondering if you do timmed graphs, to see how quick the HP & TQ comes on with different tunes?

Those dyno figures are better than I am getting from my 120r. Once I get a few more kms on it and it's due for freshen up and my bank has recovered. Might need to have it sorted out to run better. Goes ok always want more. A little better than standard bike until 3000rpm then surges for a bit.

2012 fatbob. 120r 58mm throttle body, bigger injectors, heavy breather (shit in the rain.) standard headers cleaned of shit with slip on S&S mufflers, screaming eagle tuner. Dynoed at Horsham Harley.

I have come back to edit this post. After looking at it latter sounds like I was bagging Horsham Harley and that was not my intention. I think they installed and set it up well, it's good on fuel and runs smooth. Just think that Harley Davidson company has inflated figures of this engine.

Dutchy's bike is a very nice beast and yeah it goes alright