Since my name has been brought up a few times in this thread here's a few things for all to remember. You, I or anyone else cannot change the laws of combustion. The only way to make power is to push the piston down harder to create more rotational force. How you do it is up to you but burning the fuel cannot change. If you run the engine richer than necessary it is less efficient and since it is less efficient it will be cooler and make less power. You must be careful in how hot you let it get also, so there are some trade off's that must be made.

As for buying a tune license you also need to remember your buying nothing but air. Once the bike is tuned you have nothing but what's in the ECM. If the shop that has the unit it was tuned with is not around, lost it, got robbed, ECM goes tits up or went under your shit out of luck. If it needs to be tune again for whatever reason your spending the money all over again, unless you work something out up front with the tuner and none of the above happens. So while it may save you a few bucks up front it may come back and bite you in the ass down the road.

This is a very interesting thread.    As I said earlier , you never stop learning .

I know cost is very important,, but lets try and work out if getting your bike tuned by a reputable  tuner, "by licence" with the Power Vision without having to purchase the device is a Practical Option  for people that are not DIY self tuning type of people. 

Steve Coles last paragraph in his responce brings up some important points.  Who am I to question Steve Cole,  but here I go  .  

Your buying nothing but air ! --  Are'nt I getting a professional tuned bike with a well regarded tuning device, (Power Vision) and a custum map ??

                                                                                           

If the shop that has the unit (Power Vision), is not around anymore etc, etc !   -   Does that mean I am locked into that one workshop (their workshop Power Vision device) for any future tuning and cant go to any other shop that provides a similar service ??    Or if I have to go to another shop that provides a similar service for whatever  reason, I'm up for say $750 all over agaian ??  

Where is my original Map saved if I require it ??     Is it saved on the workshop's unit ?   Do I get a copy ?

If it needs to be tuned agian for whatever reason your spending your money all over again !! -    Is there a time limit on the Licence and after that time I, (or the workshop) have to pay for another licence for future tuning work  if required, or is it a once only licence buy ???   I can understand paying for future dyno time . 

OK, there are some questions I need to get my head around. Look forward to your responces !!!       Ride safe ,  Cheers.   

 

 

Stress heads!.....And who said reality TV was the best thing since sliced bread .....lol

You're not going to be left with nothing to show for it, you are paying for a service, in this case a dyno tune, you can go to another dealer and purchase another tune at any time if you wish to.
There is no time limit, it is a one time purchase for that bike.

Look Stress heads, not everyone wants a module, or some add on devise, I've had customer buy modules, lose them, damage them, misplace them or what ever, they have to start all over. That gets really expensive especially if that system has the capacity to lock everyone out including Harley. That means a new ECU!
Not everyone is going to want to use it, who cares, go buy your own PV and get on with it, there's plenty out there who just want the bike tuned.

This is my take on this

If ya just after pipe and aircleaner, buy a tuner is TTS or PV and get a tune very close by yourself

Cams, Buy a tuner TTS or PV and tune yourself or go to a Dyno, Now by this time you have been bitten and will no doubt do futher mods so need to get tuned again

Heads, more cubes and compression up for a tune again

So just by a fucking tuning device

I just got my dealer PVision. The majority of guys want their bike tuned. Maybe not the majority here but most guys who ring me etc. Cost.. SEPST or P Vision etc all cost $495 to $590. Add on dyno time ( not download /canned tune time) and your looking at $450-$600 cost, depending on build etc. Basically the customer will pay $250 license fee, to tune his bike as many times as he wants instead of buying the hardware. Dyno-time still the same. I can see it being good for the customer, as he will get the same quality of work for about $300 less.

Lushy I agree and appreciate that some one has finally answered the question of "how much of the costs are the license fee"
to me this is what may help some decide if they want to own a unit or not.
I have the PV with the auto tune pro module, mostly for small changes I make (pipes etc) but I still get it tuned on the dyno when I make a major change

 Does that license have to used at the same shop it was purchased at or can you go to another dynojet/Powervision tuner and enter your VIN and get it tuned there?

Buy a tuner and be done with it. For fucks sake i dont understand some people. Spend fucking heaps on the bike, then a heap on performance parts and let it all go to waste by being a tight ass on the tune and tuner.

T1

Hilly, if the average dyno price is $500 then you are correct. Better than $1100 first hit eh? Harry, good question, not sure on that. As I only got the device Friday, no paperwork yet. And Terroristone, I agree, but now there is an option. You can pay a fee to use a tuning device and get the same result. I really struggle with the concept of the guy who walks in having spent maybe $25-50K on their bike, $4k on bolt ons ( often the WRONG ones), then busts my chops on saving $100 on a tune.

The licence is a one off cost. The first tune will cost $750.00, every other tune after is $500.00 assuming you bring it back to me. If you go somewhere else you pay $750.00 again for that shop to purchase the licence.

WOW I must be way out of touch.......750 for a tune.

What do we get for the 750?

I am still stuck on the OP's13.2 AFR producing the best results (with relevant VE and timing).  Was shot down months ago when I suggested the same.

Wash the cylinders down, killed the motor.

So which one is it?

 

Edit: BTW fuel economy issue not of huge importance to me.

A Harley Davidson twin cam engine will produce max power between 12.8:1 and 13.5:1. NOT all of the engine combinations will want the same mixture but they all fall in that range. Your not going to wash rings down from a WOT mixture in that range. Normal cruise light load areas 14.68:1 to 14.3:1. You would transition from the light cruise to your WOT mixture as you go from light to heavy load.

Hi dedge,

As a tuner this is a really exciting breakthrough. I am currently going over the new tuning process and it is the best set up by far. Having LIVE access to front and rear AFR at the same time is not only time saving but so much better for the bike. As tuners we become very careful with the hidden cylinder AFR swapping back and forth double checking that we aren't missing something assuring not to hurt the engine. This updated method saves any doubt. !!!!!!!!!!!!!  

The extra cost saving to the bike owner not having to buy a tuning module just to put it away in the cupbord is perfect. The New PV Licence program (now available through Power Vision Tuning Centres) with a full custom advance dyno tune map is all most of the owners really require.  This allows the majotity of the cost being dedicated the the important part. TUNING THE BIKE. !!!!!!!!! Having access to all the ECU parameters and adjustments via our "Master Power Vision Module" allows us the best oppertunity to give the bike and the owner everything that they are looking for in a perfect tune. And a saving of $350 compared to buying a complete PV or SE Pro is an added bonus.

In early January 2014 when our new Dyno hardware and software turns up we will have more access to checking both front and rear cylinders at the same time with live AFR for both cylinders on our main computer screen. Along with our new PV equipment we will have live AFR twice for each cylinder adding even more accuracy and time saving for all Harley Dyno Tunes.  It just gets better and better!!!

Cheers EBT

"It will be all perfect in the end. If it"s not perfect it"s not the end".

 

 

 

EBT you beat me to the punch I was just talking to my tuner (Deano) and he will be getting his hands on the new twin AFR features in January aswell, he is excited and I will be getting mine on there again with the new feature to check it out

In my experience most folks use their own dongle ONCE to load a stage 1 Calibration into the ECM

I'm talking the "old" original SERT ,( which "became" the TTS ) and the SEPST

The dongle then sits on the shelf for evermore

Shit I even know of a fair few who have "lost" their dongle somewheres !

Now we're NOT talking about the posters on this forum , but " Joe Average "

Of all the guys I have guided , only 6 or so have ever then gone down the cams / Heavy breather route subsequently.

They come back to me , to use my laptop and cables principally , for a further re-flash to suit the cams.

 NONE have cables as a rule !

The vast majority of those guys are "bamboozled" by the process ( NO JOKE !!)

Is it still "better" to have your own "tuner" AKA dongle ? Well probably , but it's not for everyone.

 What if you sell your bike across the country away from "your" Power Vision centre ? 

That's where a "Tuning centre" may / may not be of use to folks.

Will be interesting indeed to "see" the outcome of Hilly's latest learnings !!

 

Interesting reading.

I tend to agree with most of the points here:

1. Some people need an accessable tuning module, and others dont. I have many of the modules left behind after their tune and also have others that could not be without their module as they are constantly messing with their combination.

2. If you dont plan on changing combinations, the new Pwer Vision license system is fanancially beneficial and I have reccommended it to many of our customers. This is not unique to any shop or individual it is merely a marketing option (clever one), offered by Dynojet (Powervision).

3. We have been measuring wideband AFR individually on HD's since we began tuning them and was not aware of any other way to do it correctly. If you are only just now realising this after many years of tuning, I suggest you do a massive recall on your past work and do them properly this time.

4. No matter what tuning system is used they can merely give you access to a tune up. If you are not aware of what AFR's do and their place in your tune up, a different licensing system cannot help you either.

5. The advantage a dyno offers a tuner will never be appreciatted by someone that has no idea and there is absolutely no point in trying to educate someone that doesnt want to learn.

Cheers guys

Anthony Rodrigues

Anyone looking for a used dyno, we have one that is in good shape but it is a model 200 DynoJet. Bought a new one that will allow us to run more bikes so we do not need this one. It does not have the load control on it, as 200'ed did not come with it. You can get the option to update it if you like from Dynojet. Looking to get $6000 US dollars for it and I can supply pictures if needed.

and postage costs would be ??????