Been driving myself crazy about the choice of oil for my beast, going to see Doc Harrison Sat morn to buy some more Amsoil 20-50. Have been running with Amsoil until last service (8000k) when I changed back to HD 360, the difference is noticeable. General engine noise seems louder and there is a small temp increase.
I'm no expert but it seems that synthetic oil does a better job of protecting the engine
Any opinions about this somewhat worn out subject?
Bob
The Harley tech people only recommend mineral oil for the V-twins excluding the V-Rod due to roller bearings in everything but the V-Rod. They said:"Its fine to use synthetic in your Harley engine. I asked do you recommend synthetic oil in the twin cam/evolution and they said no we do not." So I stick to mineral. What happens is around 80000/95000KMs the clutch & engine f@@KS up on SOME peoples ride. I've heard it happening because of Amsoil MC oil,experienced it happening with (grp. 3) synthetics designed for cars with friction modifiers in them, Mobil 1 15w50, Penrite Syn. Blend and some SYn. bike oils. It doesn't happen on everyones bike.
It happens due to the bearing design on everything but the V-Rod. These bearings need the correct viscosity to gyrate properly. Too much or too little movement and friction is created. Just a word of warning it does happen in my experience and knowledge. Also-I change my oil every 4,000ks, this brings the argument that's synthetic is better for engine longevity debate down a notch or three. The quality of the oil is the real clincher. There's mineral oils like Brad Penn 20w 50 that are mineral but perform just as good as synthetic oils in car racing test analysis.
A word for the record: I class synthetic as Group 4 and 5. NOT Group 3 oil what they label as synthetic, when it is ultra refined mineral.
Laugh all you want Scotty, you suck it up good.
Ignorance is as ignorance does Scotty. If you take the twin cam engine apart and look at the bearing design you will see what I mean. Harley Davidson designed SYN 3 for the V-Rod not any other model. The Harley-Davidson Enginners DO NOT RECOMMEND synthetic for Evo & twin cam. They designed and built these engines they should know what works. (This advice was given after SYN 3 was available to the public). Other American bike makers like Big Dog will invalidate your warranty if you use synthetic due to similar bearing design as the twin cam engine. If synthetic is so good why does it screw up the engine on Evo/twin cam then? At the end of the day it's your engine you do what you want with it. I just don't like your silly ass comments thanks. fullstop.
Scotty bikies in Oz and America have been using Pennzoil and Penrite mineral oils for years with no problems.
Marketings brainwashed you man. There's an old saying: "Don't fix what ain't broken".
The only synthetic I know that doesn't cause problems to the twin cam/Evo is Mobil 1 V-Twin.
If you know anyone who has used Amsoil from the broken in stage to engine re-build with no problems I'm all ears.
To explain the reason for going to a synthetic oil the story goes back to when I first decided to buy a new Harley in 06. Having been out of riding for a few years I was not up to the latest trends. The choice of model was easy (not really) but there was no option as to carbed or EFI, all models are EFI thanks to gov. EPA regulations. After delivery and going through the run in phase the first thing I noticed was that the motor seemed to run very hot. I had ordered pipes, PC111 and SE aircleaner this was more to do with trying to gain a few more horses and achieve a louder Harley sound. After fitting PC111 etc the engine seemed to run cooler due in part to the engine running richer.
Being curious I trawled through the US HD forums where there is continous debate about engine temps, engine wear and potential fixes,because excessive high temps can lead to premature engine wear. One of the things hotly debated is oil and the merits of synthetics etc. The debate centres around Harley staying with aircooling and slow reving long stroke Vtwin configuration but adding a heap of polution control devices, it will obviously last the warranty period but after that who knows. After reading all this I thought "bugger it" I'll try the synthetic thing. I got to talking to Doc Harrison (Motorcycle mechanic and Amsoil supplier in WA) who was at first reluctant to supply me because the bike was brand new, he stronly recomended to run the bike in with dino oil first and then change to synthetic. Which I did. The difference in engine noise was apparent straight away particularly at idle.One of the main attribute for synthetic oil is that it has a higher heat tollerance over a longer time frame.
I can't believe that a major oil manufacturer would put out a product that was detrimental to our bikes or cars.
Well there's my 02, time will tell !!!!!!!!!
Bt
So bloody confusing for a punter who know's F.A. about the different oils
Hey Scoty,
Howdya get one of those in the oil tank?
I can understand Castrol Edge 10w60 working in your Harleys due to it being designed for diesel aswell as being a Group 3 oil primarly and the large 10-60 viscosity gap. Group 3 is highly refined mineral and the 10-60 gap obviously creates enough friction to lube the engine well. Obviously the new SM/CFoil package works for Harleys I've not tested it out?
Are your bikes hard to start when you've just filled up the tank when the bikes luke warm? Does your engine start pinging when stopped and started when hot? Tell me when your bikes make the 200,000k mark I'm curious.
It's just the SM package is meant to be friction modifing and cause the above problems. Maybe because it is CF also it's not a problem.
I don't like Amsoil Harley Oil it messes alot of peoples engines up and it ain't cheap either. I try and save them the expense. That's what this post was about.
S&S endorse Mobil 1 V-twin which is optimised for frictional losses.
If the additive package is wrong for the Harley it will damage the bearings. It will damage the engine through detonation, pinging, clutch slippage,starter clutch slippage and frictional losses and a whole host of things if you ride alot in the city. When touring these problems are reduced due to frequency reduction of the clutch/starter and frictional loss alteration due to a stressed oil for long time periods.
The engine years are 1988 and 2003. The bearings differ from the V-Rod and cars.
Big dog are the largest selling custom V-Twin manufacturer in the USA.
SYN 3 is primarly Group 3 (ultra refined dino oil) should be fine to run in Harleys in theory. I wouldn't personally do it and I ain't tested it. It was designed for the V-Rod and costs alot at the stealership. Try reading what I actually write Scotty. My post was in response to AMSOIL oil use. I added info. on synthetics that I know don't work like Mobl1 15w 50 for cars,Pennzoil Synthetic Blend and SH/SJ car oils. It was not an alot attack on synthetic. I stated what Harley told me.
At the end of the day this has been for nothing as there ain't know truth anyway, it's all opinion.
The Harley engine is so over enginneered anyway it's hard to destroy in everyway but internal rusting.
When you say my opinion is laughable you insult me.
Thanks for your sharing your knowledge Roadtrain. You learn something everyday.
I was thinking of switching to SIN 25 for the summer (this SIN 25 looks great on paper and Penrite tech. recommend it for Harleys) ; instead of 50% Penrite Enduro/ 50% Caltex Delo 400 as usual.
How does the SIN 25 run in your engines? I've heard nothing but positive stuff about in racing and Harleys.
I use Caltex Delo 400 or Shell Rimula MV 15w40 diesel for winter. I think it was a wise move to change the fuel pumps on your tourers too aswell as improving circulation with the K&P oil filter through the desert areas.
Shadow.
Couldn't agree more with you Scotty,I had a very similar discussion on this forum not long after it started up.Sick and tired of hearing guys that use diesel mineral oils sprouting off about how great they are and that everyone should join them and not use synthetic oils.I made all my points in that earlier post,but one thing I wanted to pick up on was,it was stated that most of the engine wear occurs due to heat,having measured the temp in both my EVO and my Twin Cam,I can state that the temp is dramatically lowered when useing a synthetic oil.What a lot of people are forgetting is that a lot of these rumours were started when synthetic oils first became available to the general public,and most were group 3 oils only,made from a mineral base and then having additives added and having their molecular structure changed,ie Castrol and their well publicised lawsuit with Mobil over just what constitutes a synthetic oil.Since those days synthetic oil technology has vastly improved,and for anything that generates excessive heat,a synthetic oil is the only oil that will not break down completely at relatively low temperatures,hence why Redline oil is one of only a couple of oils that is certified to run in jet aircraft engines.I know my engine gets hot,but not that hot.The old argument that I change my oil every 4-5,000 km anyway doesn't always stand up either,because if you are caught in traffic in the city in the middle of summer,it isn't uncommon for the ambient temperature to be well over 40 deg C,and with no air flow,the engine temps can skyrocket,well over the temp that cause mineral oils to breakdown,that and the fact that all the new Harleys run hotter than previous models by their design constraints.In which case just sitting in traffic it is possible to destroy or damage an engine.After more than 30 years as an engineer in the automotive field,I would rather use an oil that is going to give me maximum protection,even if it costs more,I can buy a lot of oil for the price of another engine.I use probably the most expensive oil on the market here in Aust. and I still change it every 5,000km just for a piece of mind.Too many people set in their old ways that are unable or not willing to accept change due to technology is a major cause of missinformation and arguments on many forums.
nobody
Oil filters are good for 8000Kms. This debate is getting rapidly getting very personal and very sad. Overall through my trial and error and others we have discovered that there is no: RIGHT or WRONG oil, be it SYNTHETIC or MINERAL. There is just oils that WORK in harley's and any other engine. See my reference thread for the oils that work. 'Hog lube Tips'. The oil companies try to confuse us all with complexities: For e.g API rating, Commercial oil rating, dual ratings, different oil characteristics, JASO MA, SG oils that work in 4-strokes without JASO MA rating, different levels of zinc/phosphorus and dispersants, different VII quality etc. It's a mine field. Having researched this practically and theoretically for years it is still confusing. I still don't fully understand oil. I have written a Ref. Doc. on oil on this website see that. It's to help choose an oil. (I'm still not 100% sure about SIN 25). Overall motorcycle oils seem to work best at protecting the engine and providing longer re-build. Shell Advance 4T 20w 50 was damn good. These grades work best: JASO MA , API SH/SG/SF motorcycle designed, CG-4/CI-4/CI-4 plus diesel rated oils. Get an oil with at least 1000PPm zinc & 950PPm, the higher the better as it protects from engine wear.
If you wanna cut your cost down from using synthetic mix mineral in it makes semi-synthetic but your oil drainage interval decreases by the percentage of mineral you put in. I was interested to know if anyone has tried Castrol Edge Sport 25w50? Any experience of this oil would be appreciated. It looks good on paper.
Like running a marathon reading this .... I think everyone is in violent agreement and I'm bloody tired I've been dazed and confused for so long it not true .... just wanted some oil, never bargained for you .... hmmm, now where have I heard that before ?
I presume the HD dealers use mineral based oil. Can anyone confirm this? Sounds like I should be usinf synthetic.
I also think the dealer alternates between minor and major services. If I change my own, and change the filter, what else do I need to concern my self with? I have an EFI 05 Fatty. What else does a dealer do in a minor service? Maybe I can do the intermediate services and save some cash. Always been a bit hesitant as the peace of mind is nice, but the bike is not under warranty, so maybe it's time to reconsidder.
Thoughts ... Mungrel
Pizzlin If you want semi synthetic I recommend buying 5Ls SIN 25 & 5L Caltex Delo 400 Multigrade 15w40. Mix together 50/50 => 20w50 but pumps better at below 8'C and good at highs. If you can't get the above: use Penrite GAS 20w 60 or Valvoline Motorcycle 15w50 (NOT gas 10. it wears out faster). If u can't get those check out my Ref. Doc. 'Hog Lube tips'.
The GAS 10 will be alright for winter/spring.
Well i'm getting a headache,theres only one thing to do, I am going to buy one litre of each oil and put a bit of everone of them in my bike and then change it regularly. THAT SHOULD WORK
