all in good time my friend.
I am sure it will happen one day but by then there will be more new ideas
never ending circle

Hilly

As you have well learned putting the sensors in properly is a big deal. It doesn't matter what O2 sensor you use either, Broad band, Wide Band or narrow band. It they are not installed into the exhaust flow properly the reading will be wrong.

With that said let's assume for a moment that the sensors are in correct and reading properly. You've used Vtune and gotten the bike running well but you have not done your WOT area as Vtune will not do it for you. Let's use DataMaster to record the O2 data and then go make a run in 3rd or 4th gear at WOT. So let's slow down in the RPM range to 2000 RPM and then twist it wide open and hold it until you reach 6000 RPM or whatever you feel is as high of a RPM as you will run. Now come back and let's review the data you recorded. On the graph plot TPS, RPM, Front O2 voltage, Rear O2 voltage, Knock Retard Front and Knock Retard Rear. find and zoom in on the area you made the WOT pull. First look to see if you have any knock retard in that area. If you do you need to address it before going any further. Once you have no knock retard in your recording during the WOT pull now look at the O2 voltage, is it flat line or jumping up and down? It should be flat (ie: same voltage). If it's not flat you need to adjust it so it is by moving the WOT AFR, WOT VE values or the PE AFR. Remember the higher the voltage number the richer your going to be and not all models and years will read the same. On a bike that uses a level 176 calibration I would use a target voltage of .900 to start with as that is richer than you want but it will be safe. If you get both cylinders to read .900 from start to finish on the WOT pull your done and the WOT is now set until you feel like you want to go and use a different sensor than the stock narrow band ones

Talking about AFR does anyone have proof when fuel can "wash" down a cylinder and cause damage?

There is a reason for the question as I have seen damaged piston/bores due to overheating where AFR has "drifted" to high levels (probably due to poor sampling of the O2 sensors on aftermarket pipes) but have never seen damage to piston/bore due to running rich.

when I first fitted my 120r I had a tune and at 110ks on the freeway and about 10% throttle the bike would just start to cough and fart and would just go backwards, this also washed my bores and fucked my ring seal and bike started using oil..
At cruise the AFR drooped down below 12.5 (expensive little fix that was)

same thing happens when you are just a little bit off the right AFR, just not as quick.

T1

Sorry to hear about the 120R Ando. Not saying it didn't happen to you but IMO (only) a lot of the "washing cylinders" is just internet myth/crap/guesswork/sounds plausible so it must be true where other issues with the tune, timing or the motor cause similar symptoms.

Just think on this one for a minute. At  80% duty 5.3g/s injectors inject about 4 grams of fuel into the chamber every second. At 3000rpm that is 25 injections of .16 gramms of fuel atomised by fuel presure and suspended in air per second. Do youy reckon that is enough to wash down the cylinders after proper ignition? Nope.

As a comparison turbo motors run a 10 AFR and don't wash their bores.

 

Not if they are tuned properly. Black bumper = bad spark/tune.....

What about E85 which has a stoich of 9.765 does that wash the bores down?

black bumper is a good indication of being too rich such as 10AFR on pump fuel not E85. So what your saying is that when running meth you keep your AFR at 10? dont get off the subject mate, we are talking pump fuel here.

T1

StinkFinger the PE mode is activated when the throttle position exceeds 95% and the RPM has reached the level set in the Cal, the RPM switch point is adjustable, the AFR can be set to whatever and for how long in seconds, the AFR gets richer over time to help prevent engine overheating, an example:

There is also a PE spark table that is adjustable to get maximum torque in conjunction with the PE AFR, PE spark adds timing and has to be done with care. Best left to the dyno imho.

Hilly a big thanks to you and all of the other knowlegeable lads on this AFR debate, i have taken bits and pieces from some of the clever replies to redo my map and just did a 2000klm weekend in 45degree heat and very happy with the way she ran. Averaged 5.2 litres per 100klm, never ran hot and pulled well from low RPM without issues. Please keep the ideas coming!

Never mind. 14.6 AFR is best. Sorry for taking the thread off course.

Hi,

Good discussion, Pauly made some simple changes and very happy with his bike performance on a big ride he done, well done Pauly

Thanks
Robots

performance afrs are 12.8 to 13.2 , thats if you can believe your o2 sensers , i tune mine to best averages what my dyno shows , 106 cub softail b eng

performance afrs are 12.8 to 13.2 , thats if you can believe your o2 sensers , i tune mine to best averages what my dyno shows , 106 cub softail b eng

not realy , just worked out how to use new phone and down load pics , hilly , will be able to put some head flows now , with different size valves and csa ,

Your getting better Alan!

curious the get the groups opinion.
just back from a lenghty autotune run with the power vision.
used the stock map (fatbob 2014) as the starting point.
have SE heavy breather and remus 2-1-2 cans with standard header pipes.

The autotune actually produced lower VE vaules in the tables when compared to stock.
I would have expected higher VE's to take into account the slight increase in air volume potential from the intake and exhaust.

ummm why would autotune prompt me to run leaner VE values after these mods?

I gave up on the power vision auto tune.
The more I ran it the leaner it got.
After the 3rd 20 minute run it started backfiring on decel.
Has anyone had it work for them?

yep

Yes