Just  a quick question to any power vision tuners out there what sort of AFR are you running with your tunes on a stage 1 103 tourer

AFR changes depending on load and rpm, these are usually set to the tuners educated guess. This topic can get very technical and over my head. There are alot of narrow minded people around who will tell you otherwise, best to let somebody tune it who knows what they are doing and has the results on the board to prove it.

T1

13.9 from 750 to 2000 14.1 14.2 to 3500 them start rich-ening it up again after 3500

This is what a very highly regarded tuner outa the States recomended to me

AS a general rule of thumb if you have good fuel control (typical EFI) there is no reason to run near as rich as some of these so called tuners do. Normal running range idle to 4000 light load to medium load (20 - 60kPa) 14.4 - 14.6 AFR, medium load range (60 - 80 kPa) 14.0 - 14.4 AFR, heavy loads (80 - 100 kPa) 12.8 - 13.4 AFR. One needs to remember that Stoichometeric, the proper burn point for gasoline, varies but in general is 14.68 AFR, with alcohol mixture of 20% it drops to 14.28 AFR so anything below those numbers is running RICH. Peak power on a HD will typically be found around 13.2 - 13.5 AFR. With a carburetor which is NOT good fuel control you need to run richer than listed above due to the fact that you have to be safe for the times the mixture varies from what you have set. A carburetor typically will not hold a AFR any better than +/- .7 AFR through its range.

 

But it's for my bike and yours may need something different

SE AC V@H 2:1

Thanks to you all for your ideas. Will try a richer mixture as we are off to do a 1900klm run over two days with the temp being around 42 in the middle of the day, dont want to run lean out there!

It is never as simple as that, the table that was posted will ride awesome and make reasonable power, however I may be a little concerned of washing bores and fairly poor fuel economy. Regardless of the target table you fill out there will always be other influences that will change your final mixtires so dont think that just because you write a mixture table that is what you will get.

Actual mixtures will also influence your timing thresholds so you need to work the two of them together. Many of us so called tuners have only spent every day for decades working these links out, but I am sure someone here that has spent 10 minutes with efi would know far more than all of us. Do your research and test plug colors, engine temperatures, power levels, oil contaminations, fuel usage and rideability with every theory you come up with and you should be safe as houses.

Cheers- Ant

Ant When are you coming to Perth????????????

Cheers Ant appreciate your input but more trying to get a better "base" setting to fiddle with rather than having it run so lean after doing an auto tune.

I dont think that people are suggesting that any of the AFR settings mentioned were the absolute gospel but the tunes that work for them. Most half smart people realise that every motor reacts differently with similar tunes. The point made by one comment was really to point out the vast differing opinion several tuners may have as to what they believe a good tune constitutes. The same vast variances in thought have been shown in the opinions of home tuners.  It has been a good informative topic so far so happy to keep the replies rolling and make an informed decision as to where i am going to start with the map.

 

Posted By buznuts on 14/01/2013 10:25:08 AM Subject: RE: Best AFR Message: It is never as simple as that, the table that was posted will ride awesome and make reasonable power, however I may be a little concerned of washing bores and fairly poor fuel economy. Regardless of the target table you fill out there will always be other influences that will change your final mixtires so dont think that just because you write a mixture table that is what you will get. Actual mixtures will also influence your timing thresholds so you need to work the two of them together. Many of us so called tuners have only spent every day for decades working these links out, but I am sure someone here that has spent 10 minutes with efi would know far more than all of us. Do your research and test plug colors, engine temperatures, power levels, oil contaminations, fuel usage and rideability with every theory you come up with and you should be safe as houses. Cheers- Ant

Thanks Hilly even more info to try to digest.

Hilly have you ever tried your Calibration in an open loop state, would be good to get your observations

Mine is very similar to Hilly's.

Ran the afr's on the map you sent Ando but didn't really notice any difference even in fuel use. Hard to judge which map does better and where.

Had some slight pinging under load on the really hot days so swapped the old map back and i still get it so am doing some timing runs.

As many of you know I really like to use the technology that comes with the bikes these days. There is no reason to run all Closed loop or All Open loop. Look at any of the base calibrations we supply and you will see it's a combination of both and always has been. To simply run rich for the sake of it really hurts the engine and oil life. In the old days (pre O2's) we had to do it due to the mixture not holding true with carburetors. Today with the quality of fuel changing from area to area I feel it's even more important. The Closed loop system will adjust for variations of up to +/- 15% while you ride, all open loop gets you is 0% adjustment! With today's EFI there is just no good reason to do it. You can get better performance and mileage with a properly tune Closed/Open loop system. The downside is that the exhaust must have the sensors properly installed to make the sensors read correctly and that is true regardless of what type/model of O2 sensor you install. Hilly learned this the hard way. Those that are stuck in the old days of running all Open loop mixtures and keeping the engines running in the 13 - 14 AFR range are just not willing to learn how to work with what is supplied on the bike to start with already! The 120R engine from HD works just fine running Closed loop so most any engine combination that you run and ride on the street can do it too, without issues.

Another thing to note is that with the lead removed from the fuel you cannot read the plugs for color like you could in the old days, you really need to be looking at the electrode and the base of the porcelain with a plug viewer to see whats going on.

Thanks as well Steve. Can i just clarify that in your opionon if i let the auto tune get me near to those numbers it should all be ok ?

It just runs so hot with those sort of numbers that i am concerned for the poor girl

If the O2 sensors are properly install the answer is YES. I want people to think about one thing and this may help you all. How does and engine make power?

The engine burns fuel and O2 to expand the contents in the cylinder, the more you expand the contents in the cylinder the more power you make! So how does one make the contents expand more? You raise the compression ratio so you can squeeze what is there more or you make the burn bigger. So what you are doing is converting the heat generated from the burn into mechanical energy. So no matter what you do, you have to increase the heat in the cylinder to increase the power.

Many thanks for your input. Have done a map that is slightly richer than Auto tune as the "seat of the pants" feel with Auto tune was not as good as running a touch richer. It would run VERY HOT with the Auto tune map and as i am doing a Sunshine Coast to Hebel and back this weekend and its been high 40 degrees out there i was looking at a cooler setting. Thanks again.

PB have you throught of either putting on a dyno just to see what ya have, or get an AFR meter and set up in your O2 bungs to see whats happening?????

Yes just not keen on the $495 dyno fee to get them to do a custom tune.

Plus it gives me more satisfaction doing the puzzle myself rather than watching someone else do it for you and charging you for the privilege, dont you agree?

What sort of $ for the meter and where from?

it was about $300 of ebay, was an australian seller