Hi guys

It was suggested by a member that I post my build here.

Building a 117 so far from the pros in the states has its difficulties, hopefully my experience will help others...

Steve at GMR performance in the states sorted me out, and other forum guys on VTF gave me good advice.

Current engine is a TC96B on a 2010 deluxe, St. I A/C, PCV and pipes.

Build as follows:

Axtell 117 kit, -10 CC dish pistons
Andrews 54 cam 16/42 int 43/15 ex 238/238 duration
Stage III CNC Heads 1.9 intake valves, 1.625 ex, squish grooves
TTS master tune
Timken Conversion
high flow injector 5.3gps
Hobans crank balance, true, pro, weld (had to buy new crank)
Rivera Primo Pro Clutch
Bassani Hutch special dual headpipes
Supertrapp universal IDS 3.5" mufflers, baffles are 2"
10.5:1 comp, corrected 9.6:1, CCP 200
Stock TB, keeping rest of drivetrain/belt etc stock as I'm not going to be doing wheelies or drag starts...

Mongrel exhaust is because I wanted to see how Bassani's equal length headers go, but didn't want their mufflers. Supertrapp mufflers flow well and are "tunable". Bassani claims their headers don't fit stock mufflers - load of B.S, fit just fine. The mounting bracket won't fit but we can make one, no problem.

My builder has been building big bores on evos and shovels for 25 years, not done a TC engine though. He has a proper machine shop so can do the case boring himself. Also has a brake dyno and 4 gas analyser, so I'm confident he can map it properly.

Can't start build until Jan, took too long to get here...

 

where in N Z are you?

Live in Auckland at the moment. Lived all over, not a JAFA..

 

Pic of squish grooves: (www.rexresearch.com/singh/singh.htm if anybody wants to know what this all about)

is that web adress, anything to do with Rex?

I know my chamber works & is a very clean burn no carbon , but its different to that chamber.

looks like someone has used it for a chopping block.

hope it works for you.

Hilly, don't know m8, but my 20 degree swish works perfect, m8 went to a lot of trouble machining it perfect center. Had the heads off after a few years runing it like that. Cow @ L.A Cycles syd who built my motor said it was the best burn he has seen swish was clean all the way around and was not on a really tight clearance. so if you think i'm now going to cut a slash in my heads because some Indian(curry not American native) gent say's it works & a lot of Americans run out and do it. your wrong.

cheers m8

ps I think maybe if you only use BP98 Ultimate or equivelent in Caltex Mobil that stuff burns pretty clean & does not built up carbon.

Yeah there are some guys out there that say a well designed chamber/squish area etc does what these grooves are meant to do anyway. I did the research - the theory is good, I've looked over what evidence there is and at worst they do nothing, at best, lowers your idle and improves fuel efficiency at low rpms. My build is a low rpm build so it could be good for me. I wouldn't cut into a $1500 piece of kit kit either without checking it out. My builder has a brake dyno and 4 gas analyser so I'm going to ask him if he can dyno it down around idle speeds and see if we can get some data.

 

 

 

 

 

Shed, understand what your saying. i will not run any HD below 2,500 rev with a load as too hard on the Roller bearings, these are not car motors the rollers can't take high shock. loads, thats why Nitro Harleys don't run roller bearings.

Yeah - I'm getting Timken bearing installed to deal with that.

I agree with Hilly Shed will be good to see how your built turns out, hope everything turns out as you want & you enjoy the ride.

Thats right Hilly, stock chamber with 20 degree machined to match the custom order 20 degree JE pistons. not new in Harleys seen  Evo's with same . they flow better too.

Oz thanks for posting, if the burn is good must be working.

I'll weight my pistons as i have a spare set had to order minium of 4 as was a custom order to JE has my own part #, the motor revs hard pull's from off idle and last week i went to the track and had not been on my bike for over a month had not been to track eather, i missed last round of Track championship. just saying this as with more time on bike i would go harder out the hole. i ran 11.299 @ 120.04mph bike had not been touched since last meet. now i'm going to ride it a lot planning a short trip after christmas & will ride it to track boxing day race it. just a 95 inch twin cam carb on pump fuel ( bp98) if the weight of piston has caused a loss of HP it's not showing up in trap speed as 120MPH standing quarter is good for a street harley. i'd also like to point out, none of this would be possible without Cow's help.

 

You guys are quite helpful - appreciate the input. I was talking to my builder the other day and he mentioned the fuel pump issue when I asked him about low idle / lugging - you've answered the question I was going to ask above already....

Re the throttle body, I am going for the low down torque - supposed to be better with a stock TB, - bigger TB flows more at high rpm but at low rpm the air is slower moving, less inertia, lose torque. Head is ported for a stock TB. Getting big TB and matching head port might only add a few hp/tq anyway, I expect 110/130 out of this engine and that should be more than enough for me... my current stock TC96B/St 1 with crappy tune job is 70/80 or something lame like that.

Oz, i'll get a stock 95 piston & take my Je 20 degree up to m8's when he gets back from USA he has some fine scales Stewart Warner as has dynamic engine balancer.

Shed i agree with Oz on that size motor needing larger TB than stock or they would freeze up. but i'm a carb man can't realy say what size 51mm would be smallest i would use. or a larger manifold volume just withg that you need to test on Dyno, sometimes what you think would give more TQ does not always work out that way.

Re above comments on TB size - stock TB on 08 later is 46mm (50mm for the touring bikes with FBW), and I do 95% of my riding under 3500 anyway, so its not a problem. Saves a bit of cash. Build is already waaay over budget... Anybody need a kidney?

My guy in the states who sent the parts (Steve at GMR) reckoned I would be fine with stock TB.

I'm using 5.3gps injectors.

Can always replace the TB anyway if it cuts out too early, I was looking at an HPI 51mm, should flow better at higher rpm without losing out too much on low end torque or throttle response. Decided to leave it as and see how we go in the end.
Will see.
 

Now I've got myself all hung up on the throttle body.
I've decided to get a HPI 51mm ported TB.
My heads have a 1.9" intake but I don't think that matters. What intake runner diameter do I need for the TB? HPI's tech guy is on holiday... They have 1.66, 1.71 and 1.8". I figure I probably want the smallest size for my application. Anybody know?

Yes I did that.

ID is 1.75" - HPI are making me up a TB with a 1.75" intake runner to match my heads. Same price. Good people.

Now I have a new problem - my 1500usd heads had manual releases in them - thought I could change them out for automatic CR's, but they go inside the rocker boxes. Not so easy. Anybody ever machined heads for ACRs and just plug-bolted the manual holes?

Or should I just stick with the manual CR's? Bike CR 10.3:1, (9.4:1 corrected) CCP 196 and I run 98 octane or 96 if I have to. Maybe I only need them for hot starts which I don't often do?

I wanted ACRs for the convenience, I know I will get sick of the manuals very soon.  I know, harden up...

 

shed, i've been useing SE push in comp release's for 5 years still not sick of them, they work fine for me mate.

But i had a kick start only stroker shovel b4 this & loved kick starting never had an electric starter, we never played with comp release in those day's

that shovel ran consistant 11.5's quarter mile with a 4 speed box, it now has a Riviera 6 speed & high Torque electric start & if weather permits we will see what it does quarter mile in on wednesday & i'll race the new owner with my 95 inch twin cam.

 

Looks like the ACR holes go through to the quench shelf right where my nice squish grooves are. Not looking good. If my builder can't machine the ACRs in off-centre then I guess I have to harden up and stick with the manual releases.


If anyone interested this topic has a few pictures of heads machined for ACRs: (allowed to post links to other forums?)

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/engine-fuel-intake-exhaust/518628-automatic-compression-release.html

Need some more help guys

Its taken me 6 months to get this build done, long story, ended up doing most of it myself with machining and help from my guy who was supposed to do the build.
Bike started ok somehow. Then I broke a valve with a loose adjustable pushrod. Another month to get the custom heads fixed in the states, nobody here would even try. Used the stock pushrods this time. (Andrews cam=stock base circle and head gasket also stock).
Had moved to Hamilton (100ks south, inland and much colder) in the meantime and after rebuilding with fixed head rode it down here ok. Then it wouldn't start in the cold so figured out how to tune the starting and warmup tables ok, got SE plugs and starts now but not easily. Needs more tweaking, but that isn't the problem, I can figure that out.

I'm using TTS and DIYing it at the moment, original map was for a 110 I think with dual pipes and cam with similar IC, I just changed the displacement to 117. Plan was to get 1000ks on the engine and get it dyno tuned by my engine guy. After about 300ks engine starting running lumpy at low rpms. VTune shows no rear cyl o2 sensor activity MOST of the time, and doesn't collect any data MOST of the time. One run I did with engine well warmed up it did seem to collect a good bit of data, and both cylinders needed about -15-20% on the VE tables where enough data was collected.

Idle is really lumpy (way more than the nice kind of lumpy idle), when engine is hot backfires at idle and low rpm. Vtune shows rpm hunting at idle 900-1300 all over the place and rear O2 stays green. Rear exhaust (which is on my right) sounds "whooshy", I'm not sure what is going on. O2 sensors are plugged in and hadn't been used before this build. Like I said above the rear sensor does give good signal intermittently.

Once I get the rpms up under load (80-100kph) engine sounds fine and bike seems to run ok. I'm living rural so haven't done much low speed riding.

I'm going to check the wiring and plugs aren't damaged and replace the exhaust gasket in case there is a leak (I re-used the rear one since it had only done 2ks before disassembling and sending broken head to states)

Any other ideas what is going wrong? Could intake leak cause this?

If I can't get it going with exhaust gasket change and checking the wires I'm going to have to fail as a Man in Control of his Engine and take it to the local guy I think...

Try swapping O2 sensors front to rear if possible, or get a new rear sensor.