Online: speedzter, Wanderer57

Milwaukee to loose Harley Davidson

  • robcig
    robcig
    14 years ago
    India!! You'll be able to order a beef vindaloo and nan bread with your Roadking..
    http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/07/23/harley-davidson-considering-assembly-plant-in-india/

    http://roadkinguk.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/harley-davidson-made-in-india/

  • Cubicinches
    Cubicinches
    14 years ago

    Yep looks like the bean counters have once again chewed through the woodwork into an industry icon. Unable count beans in tradition and faithful employees, they will yet again pull the rug out of another company

  • andij
    andij
    14 years ago
    theyd sell more bikes if it wasnt for the price ,we pay double after taxes and duties and margins ..imagine if they cost what they pay in usa ...plus all the extras,bling etc id have at least 2 or 3 harleys .
  • groover
    groover
    14 years ago
    Just another attempt to screw the employees.

    Maybe they should outsource all work to India and let us sit on our arses on the dole.

    Great theory, NOT......!!!!!!!

    Be a better idea to outsource all accountancy, real estate sales and most of all Politicians to third world countries.
  • Fangio
    Fangio
    14 years ago

    IMO...too many models.... how many different sportsters can ya buy....should have a base 5 bikes and let poeple add stuff....and yeah cost could be dropped here in aus....

  • boxa
    boxa
    14 years ago
    Andij ,,, just hit the nail on the head there to expensive
  • oneup
    oneup
    14 years ago
    when things get hard for business, its a proven fact that companies that maintain their marketing spend,ie advertising budget, or increase it, have a better success rate.
    we all love our harley accessories and nicknacks right.... merchandising after anything be it movie toys, or harley coffee cups sell like hotcakes...
    but.......
    when was the last time you saw a harley davidson poster?? sounds trivial, but if they made them, who wouldnt want some???. a poster is cheap as paper, sells for about $20 and would sell in the millions, shit id buy half a dozen... i asked at morgan ans wackers the other day..and they said harley dont make them...but come to think of it they didnt know why...
    in america alone they would sell millions..in sheds housed bars, clubs etc... 1 million at $20 is $20,000,000... and its advertising that people are paying for...the concept of making a profit purely from advertising is awesome..and each poster out there helps encourage people to aspire to ownership. who hasn't lookd at a bike mag centerfold and thought i want one of those..and im not talking about the woman...lol...
    showing my age but i recall ther used to be harley posters...
    i wouldnt sneeze at the millions a simple thing could make me...
    good management is looking for ideas to make more money. not about cutting costs, jobs, quality, its tapping into the markets wants.
    thats just one idea, ther would be thousands more..
    a harley davidson made in india or china has no appeal..so if it halves production costs but it looses customers and credability,its a downhill run..
    end of rant....
  • Two tone
    Two tone
    14 years ago

    No Rodders youd have to pay $40 cause it has HD on it

  • Soapbox2627
    Soapbox2627
    14 years ago
    So it seems that if H-D goes to India, WE the forum members would not buy a new Harley if not made in America. so it's the American steel, big V-twin

    with that in mind
    How many of you would buy a Suzuki Boulevard 109 as they are ONLY made in America?
  • philthy
    philthy
    14 years ago

    No matter where Harley's made I'll still buy one. How much japanese is there on a Harley now? shitloads. I've got metric and imperial on me Rocker,a pain but that's the way it is. I don't want to think about Milwaukee losing Harley Davidson though, shit, it'd be an uproar worldwide. There'd be millions of people doing raghead dives into the rocks below being so distraught!!!!!

  • kaboom
    kaboom
    14 years ago
    i think id still by one by the way how menny ppl know honda gold wings were made in america until i think it was last year
  • TheBeaver
    TheBeaver
    14 years ago
    As Bob Dylan sang.....The times they are a changing .....
  • FLSTC
    FLSTC
    14 years ago
    welcome to the real world Mr Harley davidson .... i suppose thats where they will start fitting air cooled motors on all the range , a better gear box , waterproof speedometer , better chrome , all for a cheaper price .
    s
  • groover
    groover
    14 years ago

    Well I for one would have to say that I probably wouldn't buy an India made HD.

    To be honest I feel that my 08 Roadking is only half the bike that my 90 Superglide was when I had it (for 17 yrs)

    Yes, the RK has fuel injection, 6 speed box and a 96 ci motor.

    But the older carby,  5 speed 80 ci evo motor had lots more character. And I mean the bike has lots more...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     

    If they want to outsource there manufacturing to some third world terrorist country, well don't expect everyone to come running. It just makes the other brands look more attractive.

     

    To put it bluntly;

     

    You can call it a "manual impact device"

    But to me it's still a hammer

  • ACF-50
    ACF-50
    14 years ago

     

    Cut from Hell For Leather WEB Site

    I like the quote:

    'if HD doesn’t produce a viable (commercially, and industrially profitable) series of new motorcycles and re-cast the brand away from the Boomers within the next 4-5 model years, they will end up like Ducati, MV, Guzzi and many incarnations of Indian: another glorious brand without a hope of sustainable business.”

     

    Bullshit: Harley’s young-adult market share and other damned lies

    Harley-Youth

    Back in July, Harley-Davidson released 2nd Quarter 2010 results that flaunted improved net revenue in an attempt to hide net income figures that were still massively lower year-on-year. In an apparent attempt at misdirection, The Motor Company also dropped a whammy of a claim: “Harley-Davidson is the U.S. market share leader of on-road motorcycles among young adults.” Could that be true? Well, like presidents diddling fat chicks with cigars, it all depends on your definition of “is.”

    Samuel Clemens once famously claimed that Benjamin Disraeli once said, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” Doubting Harley’s claim, we approached an industry analyst, who prefers to remain anonymous, to help us discover the facts behind the numbers.

    Here are Harley’s claims:

    “Despite the decline in second-quarter retail motorcycle sales, we believe interest in the Harley-Davidson brand remains strong among riders of all generations. In fact, Harley-Davidson is the U.S. market share leader of on-road motorcycles among young adults.”

    “. . . in the U.S., no one is reaching new customers better than Harley-Davidson.”

    “Based on recently provided Polk data, we have been the heavyweight motorcycle category market leader in new motorcycle sales to young adult men and women ages 18 to 34 since at least 2006.”

    “And when it comes to new motorcycle sales to young adults in ALL sizes of on-road motorcycles, Harley-Davidson has been the U.S. market share leader since 2008.”

    Our analyst provides some context: “H-D accounts for over 60% of the on-road market, all displacements.  Even if only 10% of those Hogs are being bought by the under 35's, that’s about 20,000 bikes, more than any single other manufacturer in the US could claim… on road.  What that statistic says more than anything, is that H-D has US market saturation, making any kind of statistical claim possible, depending on how you chose to categorize the data.”

    The key in all this is the “heavyweight” category, an outdated classification from the MIC that dates from the 1970s when a 650cc Bonneville was a big, fast motorcycle. “Heavyweight” motorcycles start at 651cc, which means all 600cc sportsbikes, 650cc twins like the SV650 and Ninja 650 and, critically, popular learner fodder like theKawasaki Ninja 250 are excluded from that class. That Ninja 250 was the the fifth best-selling bike, of any class, in the US last year.

    Our analyst asks, “How can anyone state with a straight face that they are ‘a leader among young buyers’ and conveniently exclude all the beginner bike market, where typically 90% of new, young bikers shop?
    “This is statistical-propaganda bullshit. While they are not lying, they are suggesting that they dominate the entire youth motorcycle market because of straight consumer appeal, and the media take the big headline and run with it.”

    The analyst goes on to suggest that a more accurate headline would read, “Harley is the market leader in new motorcycle sales to young men and women ages 18-34, in the cruiser market.” Not such a shocking revelation after all. Rather than indicating the success of a marketing effort directed at young people or the degree of a model’s appeal among new riders, the numbers merely indicate that Harley continues to sell more cruisers than any other brand.

    According to WebBikeWorld, 520,502 motorcycles of all kinds were sold in the US in 2009, down from a high of nearly 1.1 million in 2005. Harley says it shipped 223,023 motorcycles during 2009, representing about 43 percent of total sales (this total includes off-road). The MIC and individual manufacturers are notoriously cagey about releasing sales figures by model or manufacturer or even class. We’re still trying to get a sales total for sub 651cc bikes. We approached both Harley (for sales of 883cc capacity bikes) and Kawasaki (for sales of the Ninja 250) and both declined requests to release any numbers.

    The average age of a Harley buyer has actually increased in the last five years, from 42-years-old in 2004 to 49 in 2009.

    “I think you will see that H-D is far from where they want their shareholders to think they are,” says the industry analyst.

    “The shareholders are not happy about the vast sums of money lost in the last 3 quarters, not so much Buell and MV Agusta capital losses, but the staggering weight of Harley-Davidson Financial Services  and its horrendous exposure to bad debt.  They refinanced, thanks to Warren Buffet, but at 15% interest. This more than anything is why HD had the fire sale on other brands, and the shareholders are screaming for a recovery plan. Externally, HD says things are fine, but internally, they are not dumb.  They know that, at that at this rate, 75% of their customer base will be too old to ride within 10 years, or at least too old to buy new machines. They really are working very hard on a bunch of young rider appeal bikes, and branding, but in the meantime they have to present salient results, NOW.  This, in my opinion, is why they presented that youth market share poppycock in the last quarterly report. It is truth, as we know, only spun in such a way as to make the common stock holder feel at ease, short term.”

    “My broker put it thus: ‘If the stock market understood the depth of Harley’s product/retail deficiency, there would be a selloff on a colossal scale.’ In my opinion, if HD doesn’t produce a viable (commercially, and industrially profitable) series of new motorcycles and re-cast the brand away from the Boomers within the next 4-5 model years, they will end up like Ducati, MV, Guzzi and many incarnations of Indian: another glorious brand without a hope of sustainable business.”

    Just for some perspective and in no relation at all to US youth motorcycle market, Honda says it sold 10,114,000 motorcycle worldwide in 2009.

    There are no Harley-branded bikes under 883cc currently in production, although The Motor Company has identified the need for a real learner bike and told us that it’s currently developing such a model.

    So is Harley reaching new, young customers better than all other bike makers? Other than trying to please shareholders by paying lip service to doing so with some marketing and spraying a few bikes matte black, it’s not even trying to. Is Harley selling more cruisers to young people than anyone else? It sells more cruisers than anyone, so yes.

    Is Harley the only manufacturer fudging numbers to drum up positive coverage from media outlets that can’t be bothered to investigate? Of course not, here’s two more examples:

    Earlier this year, BMW announced a 21% year-on-year increase in Q1 sales. Articles following that press release made it sound like BMW was on fire during a deep recession, attributing that increase to huge sales of the then-new S1000RR superbike.

    In the release, BMW didn’t make it clear whether that improvement was in the US or globally. In 2009, BMW sold 87,306 bikes globally and 9,168 bikes in the US.

    “1,925 bikes [21% of US sales] in three months is not such an impressive improvement considering that the US is BMW’s third most important market,” says our analyst. “Even if we take the global figure, it gets really silly when you realize that BMW accounts for about 1% of the market. So that media frenzy was about 0.21%, one-fifth of one percent of the global motorcycle market. I’m sure Honda wasn’t quaking in their kimonos.”

    Did BMW sales increase during Q1 2010? Yes. Did BMW sales increase during Q1 2010 to a degree in proportion to dramatic reporting? Nope.

    Another example of statistics without context presenting an unrealistic picture hails from only yesterday and from the Motorcycle Industry Council itself.

    The MIC’s press release reads: “Despite the rising number of motorcycle miles traveled, fatalities decreased 16 percent and injuries declined 6.3 percent last year, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s 2009 Fatality Analysis Reporting System. Among all types of motorists, motorcyclists had the second-largest reduction in fatalities, behind large-truck occupants, and the largest drop in alcohol-impaired fatalities – also a 16 percent reduction.”

    What could be the cause of the first decline in motorcycle fatalities in 11 years? Could training, safety and awareness campaigns finally be paying off?! The reality is much less exciting than the 16 percent number alone.

    As the MIC notes in the same release, “The latest MIC Owner Survey found that fewer than 50 percent of riders have taken formal rider education and training such as the Basic RiderCourse offered by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.” The decrease in fatalities can largely be attributed to the decrease in motorcycle sales that took place during the same time period.

  • FatRob
    FatRob
    14 years ago

     Harley-Davidson Inc. announced this morning that it will keep production operations in Wisconsin, following yesterday’s contract votes by the Company’s Wisconsin unionized employees.

    The decision follows Monday’s ratification of three respective new seven-year labor agreements by employees represented by United Steelworkers (USW) Local 2-209 and International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) Lodge 78, both in Milwaukee, and USW Local 460 in Tomahawk, Wis. The agreements take effect in April 2012 when the current contracts expire.

    Harley-Davidson produces motorcycle powertrains (engines and transmissions) at its plant in Menomonee Falls near Milwaukee and motorcycle components such as saddlebags in Tomahawk.

    Change is never easy, and we have asked our employees to make difficult decisions. However, we are pleased to be keeping production operations in our hometown of Milwaukee and in Tomahawk,” said Keith Wandell, President and Chief Executive Officer“Together, we are making the necessary changes across our entire company to succeed in a competitive, global marketplace while continuing to meet and exceed the expectations of our customers.”

    A key component of Harley-Davidson’s restructuring is a standardized continuous-improvement production system across company facilities. That system focuses on greater flexibility for seasonal and other volume-related production changes, an enhanced ability to vary product mix in line with customer preferences including the customization of motorcycles at the factory, and greater production efficiency overall. The production system includes the addition of a “casual” workforce component – unionized employees who work as required, depending on seasonal needs and to provide coverage for vacations and other absences.

    The decision to remain in Wisconsin concludes a two-path assessment that began earlier this year to determine whether the Company could achieve the needed changes for the Wisconsin operations to be competitive and if not, relocate those operations.

    All three of the new Wisconsin labor agreements contain essentially identical provisions except for variances in wage rates and incentives related to contract ratification. All provide a very competitive compensation package while enabling the flexibility and efficiency needed for the Company to be cost-competitive. The agreements also move full-time hourly employees to the same health benefits plan that salaried employees have and maintain a non-contributory defined benefit pension plan at current benefit levels funded entirely by the Company.

    Based on the new ratified labor agreements, the Company expects to have about 700 full-time hourly unionized employees in its Milwaukee-area facilities when the contracts are implemented in 2012, about 250 fewer than would be required under the existing contract. In Tomahawk, the Company expects to have a full-time hourly unionized workforce of about 200 when the contract is implemented, about 75 fewer than would be required under the current contract. The Company also expects its Wisconsin production workforce to include 150 to 250 casual employees on an annualized basis to cover seasonal volume spikes, vacations and other absences as the new labor agreements are implemented.

    The new contracts are expected to generate about $50 million in annual operating savings in 2013, the first full year of the agreements. The Company expects to incur approximately $85 million in additional restructuring charges related to the new contracts through 2012, of which about $55 million will be cash charges.

    When fully implemented, the Company expects previously announced restructuring activities, together with the implementation of the new contracts at the Wisconsin operations, to result in one-time charges of $515 million to $545 million, and annual ongoing savings of $290 million to $310 million. In 2010 on a combined basis, Harley-Davidson expects to incur restructuring charges of $225 million to $245 million and to generate related savings of approximately $135 million to $155 million.

    A brief summary of this financial information is available online in the Company/Investor Relations/Events and Presentations area on the Harley-Davidson website. Visithttp://investor.harley-davidson.com/Events.cfm and click on the event titled “Harley-Davidson Production Operations to Remain in Wisconsin” dated Sept. 14, 2010.

  • the_mongrel
    the_mongrel
    14 years ago
    Fender paid the price by moving their operation outside the US. A Jap strat has the value of a toad in comparison to a USA Deluxe, and HD will go the same. :(
  • WAGlide
    WAGlide
    14 years ago

    The article was in April. I was reading a few days ago that Unions have agreed to a new deal for the next 7 years (standard agreement period in the states). Wisconsin Government have also given Harley a $25mil (US) tax relief.