interesting , looks like a SCOTTY input

Was PE kicking in and if so what is it set at?

Are your injectors maxed out and unable to deliver more fuel regardless of the request? Did you log pulse width and work out the duty cycle where this was happening?

cheers
Surly

 

There is a section in the manual about tuning VE on a dyno by setting all the cells to 13.5 and then altering VE till you achieve this.

If you have the dyno hours a back to back on the results would be great.

If you want to borrow my motec wide band gimme a yell.

cheers
Surly

Had a further thought...did altering the target AFR result in any change in the measured AFR?

Stix,

100kpa is 1000millibars of pressure. We get as high as 1030 millibars of pressure here so it isnt impossible to see 103kpa. I am not sure if the TTS will display this or not.

Is your dyno guy showing an interest in tuning using the TTS?

cheers
Surly

ya should of gone a T/MAX

with that build stix u should be a easy 125/125 , its near the  same build as mine besides cams,

would ur cams be holding it back ? ur woods VS ss585g

whats ur psi , over 200 ?

ill try get a scan thing so i can post some old dyons

The VE is in the heart of the calculation to figure how much air is entering the engine. If you look at the V-tune display when recording data you will find the kPa displayed just below the temperature in large type. The limit of the system is about 80 - 85 kPa that it will learn the correction for. So when you log V-tune data you will see it turn yellow backround color when it can no longer collect data. This will determine where your last good data point is for any one RPM row. Since the Barometer pressure at sea level is ~ 100kPa that's as good as it can get. So what yo do is turn the switches on and use DataMaster to monitor what the max kPa at your location is prior to starting the motor. That will show you what you can get too.
So what you are doing when blending to the right in each rows is taking the corrected values from the 80 kPa area and going to the 100 kPa cells and filling them in. Since the engine will get to 80 kPa at various points of TPS Vs RPM you will begin to see the pattern. On a dyno that has load control it make it very easy to fill in the V-tune data log b setting the dyno to control engine speed and just moving the throttle.

Hope this help you understand.

after reading wat i wrote on lifters in the lifter section i was thinking this could be ur problem mate ,might pay to removed one of the rocker covers and mount a Dial Gauge to  the top of  a Inlet Valve,  turned the engine over by hand and seee wat lify ur getting,  you might only be getting  410  lift and not say  585  lift you should be , you might already have anti bleeds in , this would have to fuck around with ur tuning i recon cause ur compres would be every where

 

06 Sep 2009 11:04 AM

Edit Quote Reply Alert

it pays to  dismantled the lifters and add some spacers to stop them bleeding down when ur going bigger cams and especialy bigger head springs , you can adjust the amount of hydraulic movement you want in the Cam Followers by putting in a good set of  Adjustable Pushrods and new tubes , if ya were using stock or even goos s&s  lifters ud be robbing urself of some good cheap HP unless ya put in antibleed lifters in

Keep an eye out for maxed out VE cells and watch the pulsewidths too Stix. 17ms is getting close to the edge.

cheers
Surly

 

Use the calculator that is in Mastertune and try to keep the injector duty cycle less than 80%. If you find yourself needing more than that for more than a couple places then it's time to get larger injectors. One thing to also note is that the instructions tell you to blend from the last good cell assuming your getting to the end of the area that Vtune will collect data and this will be 80 - 85 kPa. If your not gettiing data up at those values then something else is going on that needs correcting.

If your bike is pinging under WOT at low RPM that will also change the WOT AFR reading in the tail pipe as you can and will be reading an improperly burned mixture. Make sure you solve that prior to doing a dyno again. As for how close Vtune will get you to the commanded versus true reading in the exhaust without a dyno it is +/- .2 afr when done correctly.

Scotty:

Is this thread related to questions raised on HTT:

http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php/topic,9562.msg98458.html#msg98458 

I never did fully understand how we can absolutely be certain the collected data was in a good 80-90kpa range!

Scotty:

IMO, you've hit on what might be happening:

 

Let's start by going out and collecting some data on your bike and I think it will become easy for all. Look at the V-tune histogram and you will find Temperature and MAP displayed one on top of the other in large type right next to the start button. So it's already there for you all. Now go out and ride and short shift up to 4th gear such that the engine stays at 1000 RPM your not going to be going very fast at all. Then slowly roll on the throttle as you apply the rear brake to keep the engine at 1000 RPM. It's very simply once you do it and you can use this method to get the higher kPa values at any engine speed.

The reason you are only to extend the values collected at ~80 kPa are due to the fact that the ECM will quit collecting data at about 85 kPa so we want the last known good data to be extended from as close to 80 kPa as possible. This will get your VE values very close to perfect at the higher kPa points. Since the system only goes to 100, You will be at a slightly richer setting by doing what I've said but that' the safe way to do it.

The yellow markers were added to let people know that they had not collected enough data in that area only. It has nothing to do with what kPa you may or maynot have been at. If we do not have enough data to make a proper decision then it is not reliable to be used for the final value for that area. While our correction will be going the right direction we just cannot say it's good as is or no good and needs more, so that's why the yellow was added

The trick you're giving about using rear brake and high gear to had load to the motor sound interesting and I'll try it as soon as possible ...

but IMO, we really need some kind of marker on the Vtune histogram to show us when the 80kPa limit has been reached and the values we can safely use for blending ... the big MAP indicator is only active when collecting data or running histogram, couldn't it shows if 80kPa has been reached when pointing to one of the cells ?
Or may bee this could be shown on the big board on the left where when can see the average VE for each cell ?

Just trying to ease the task ...

 

 

You guys just want everything.......................

I will see what we can think up and do. Since the cells are in TPS there is no set way to say where 80 kPa is, and it will vary with engine build and engine RPM. The 2010 Touring bike will be a cake walk as the Lambda based system is done using kPa instead of TPS.

 

Well, while you are taking orders from our wish list! LOL. Can we get rid of the yellow boxes, I just can't get my head around them. To my mind they are just a distraction, but that is probably just my mind!

Now, I know that the yellow boxes are there to indicate that not enough data has been collected in that cell for that run to be used confidently.

I find that after you have done several VTune runs (for a novice like me it could take five runs to get good data in all cells) the yellow boxes just mask the fact that over five data runs the cell may well have collected enough data to be usefull and reliable. However, on the last run it did not get enough hits in these break points and shows up yellow. Still, because you can't see if it is white, red or pink, I am unsure whether the data is useful at all. Like I said, I find the yellow boxes a distraction and this is why. I would much rather see the white to red shading.

Anyway, this is just the rambling of a "beginner tuner", but I thought you might want some feedback from the demographic I so ably represent.

Your thoughts and comments are much appreciated

This has proven to be good thread for me. Being a novice as well with the tts I have learnt much more about achieving a better VTune. I went back through my las two VTune Histograms and just looked at the MAP display on the playback and have realized with an average of only about 45Kpa and rarely hiting 60-80Kpa, I am nowhere near ready to blend accross. Sure it has made the map more ridable after each upload but also shows me there is much more to gain by getting to the 80 or so Kpa in each rpm range. I also realized the AE in particular has knocked out higer MAP readings that would have been usefull.

So I will try the riding style that Steve mentioned (short shifting to higher gears with rpm down) to see if I can get to these MAP levels in VTune although I think this is lugging the motor. I guess the yellow cell indicator is not as important as knowing if you have reached the higher MAP readings but they do let you know the limit of the VTune or maybe even how it is trending.

I live in Sydney and have the oportunity of doing VTune runs up the Blue Mountians and I was wondering if it is a good thing to mix low and high altitude VTune runs in the same map?

Thanks

Yes, you will be lugging the motor at low RPM's but once you start to get the VE values filled in properly you will begin to see the trend in them. I can take what I see from just some low speed testing and make a pretty good guess at what the rest needs to be but I've been doing this along time. Makes developing new calibrations for new parts go much faster. Make sure that when using the brake trick you do not over heat the brake, could be a bad thing if you happen to need it all of a sudden!