Hello to all or should I say G-Day.

I was reading some of the questions to the TTS and V-Tuning here where Scotty pretty much got it dead on target however there are a few items I would like to clear up in my defense.

First off let me say a bit about who I am and this post is not to bash or correct any of the members here....maybe to open some minds to my way of tuning on the road (or open track).

I was selected by Steve Cole (TTS) to be one of the five Beta Testers for the TTS world wide so I was Blessed to be able to actually play with this tuner 6 months before it's release to the public. I also make a living from traveling the country training Dealers and Indy Shops on Dyno Operations, EFI Tuning Procedures, and Performance Consulting for the last 7 years. ( Most all the training that I have done in the last 18 months has been on the TTS and working very close to Steve Cole) Before that I had my own Harley Service Indy Shop for 25 years plus worked in two Dealerships for a total 6 years. I only give this information because of a post I read asking who is he, what is his back ground and why should we listen to him....so there you have it in a nut shell ,(not that this means you have to listen to me...lol).

I wanted to address two things if I may;  #1 I have a new PDF File on V-Tuning without a Dyno v2 that was released a few weeks ago, this version is much easier to follow and more descriptive. Things (steps) where eliminated that would put your bike in a unprotected state while tuning on the road by an end user without a trained ear (such as the knock sensor) All in all you need to go with the new version rather than the older one....if I knew how to attach it here I would, perhaps some one could shed some light on that for me.....I'd be glad to share it with you all.  #2 On the topic of turning off the Decell Table and the Accel Table while V-Tuning without a Dyno;  My reasoning behind this is simple, as you throttle up the ECM uses the Accel Table to add fuel and as your throttle down the Decell Table adds or removes fuel, as fuel is altered by these two tables the ECM removes (or kicks out of) the the closed loop operation. When this occurs it takes a few seconds for the closed loop to activate again (or come back on line).  When your tuning with the V-Tune program your tuning in closed loop and the longer you can keep the ECM in the closed loop mode the more information you will collect in your V-Tune histogram. Now as a dyno operator and tuner I can control the throttle so the decell and accel Table doesn't effect my data however while you guys are tuning while riding every throttle movement you make throws the ECM out of closed loop and a great deal of data is loss-ed in this transition........if you ''0'' out those two tables the ECM DOESN'T come out of closed loop and more data is recorded in less time. I discussed this with Steve Cole and he agrees that more data is better but he didn't know if turning the tables off indeed keeped it in closed loop so I did several test recordings to confirm that it does keep the closed loop from kicking out during throttle movment.....and that gentleman is my reason for turning off the Accel and Decel Tables during a tune on the road.  If you select not to do this step it won't hurt a thing, this is an option only but this is a good option.

One other thing while I'm here....adjusting the PE Table to 13.5 was the only way we had to control the 100% Throttle Position fuel delivery as we tuned on the Dyno, however since then Steve has added a RPM based table that controls what rpm the PE Table is activated....using this new table, in the Tuning Constants, setting it at 10,000 rpm will stop it from activating anywhere in the map so adjusting the PE values to 13.5 is no longer a needed step.

Thanks for your time, again I would like to share the version 2 with you all.....it is not as good as Steve Cole's latest Manual however I believe it speaks on a lower level and a lot shorter. Don't get me wrong...I love the new TTS Manual, I was selected to read it before it's release and I told Steve it was so good that it will possibly put me out of the training business.....lol

Thanks again Guy's ,keep up the good advice Scotty.

Doc

HDMD Tuning Center

EFI Tuning Training

hdmd88@yahoo.com

352.242.9616 

DOC nice read. I expect you will get a lot of responses about this.

Hi Doc

I have been following your posts on some of the US forums and must say I am very impressed with your knowledge of the TTS system and look forward to the day when my new FLHT arrives so I can fit the TTS to it.

The new PDF File on V-Tuning without a Dyno v2 is available from this link http://www.box.net/shared/plxnkm9ars#

Thanks for all your hard work Doc.

Thank for the info Doc, clears a couple of things up for me.

Thanks Guys for the warm welcome....hope I can help out!!

Doc

Welcome Doc. Question time for you and Scotty on my first attempt of using V tune my second run i got at 4500rpm TP40 VE=83.5 at 5000rpm TP40 VE=0 at 5500rpm TP40 VE=87.5 what figure do i fill in the blank cell? My ony other figure is at 5000rpm TP20 VE=89.

Banditvox

Can you post your generated VE tables for us to have a better look, also is this a Sporty or a Twin Cam?

Doc

Hey guys, have question for ya about screen dumps of the Vtune histogram and generated VE tables.

Have tried "PrtScrn+Ctrl+C" and then "Ctrl+V" in a word doc but it doesnt seem to work. Is it just me or is there another way to go about it?

Started with Map TD-205-000-C2 as sugested by Scotty and just completed my second Vtune run on my 08RKC, having problems getting data at and above 60% TPS, maybe I'm not riding it fast enough lol. Bounced it off the limiter in 2 & 3 a few times trying to map these areas, takes practice I guess.

Anyway sooo far so good and the info from Doc & Scotty & Steve Cole I have read on this and other forums has made this software real easy to use, thanks guys.

If your at sea level or close your only going to see about 60% and then it's only in the 3500 to 4500 rpm area.....if you where  a couple 1000 ft above sea level you would start seeing ve's filled up in the 80's and 100% TP...your doing well at 60%...carry on.

Try copy paste into a XL spread sheet

Doc

Yes that is correct....10% off for forum members which gets it to $385.00 and the cables are $78.95 for the usb and $35.00 for the serial kit, however,  the shipping to you all is about $26.00 I believe and that kills your discount. I would be glad to send them your way if you want.

Doc

I beleive the real values at play here are from the MAP Manifold Absolute Pressure measure in (Kpa) and the pressure effect at sea level. Data is not good below ~25 or above ~85 kpa. This is what I recenlty read in the documentation on the TTS website... I am no expert, just learning (or at least trying to).

For reference this is what I am reading and beleive to be the 'phenomenon' experienced here:

http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuning%20Files/Manuals/MasterTune_Tuning_Guide.pdf

Section 4.6.4

I am just drawing some concusions...Right or wrong...

The effects and causes are what is driving the data collection. So what we have is a motor at a fixed RPM for an example. As the throttle increases at a fixed RPM so does the load and the manifold pressure rises. At sea level the absolute manifold pressure is ~ 100 kPa, at 6000 ft. it is ~ 85 kPa. So now back to the fixed RPM motor at sea level it can only get to around 100 kPa but it will do that at various throttle settings. At low engine speeds you will get to 100 kPa by 15% TPS while at higher speed (> 3500) you will not reach 100 kPa until 80% TPS. Now on a motor at 6000 ft. you will never get to 100 kPa no matter what the throttle is at. So to determine what your max manifold pressure is in your area hook up DataMaster and start a data recording with just the two switches turned on, do not start the motor. Look and see what the MAP reading is and that's the max for your area. The closed loop system on a HD programmed with TTS software is ~ 25 - 85 kPa range out side those limits you will not be in closed loop operation so any data collected cannot be used for proper corrections.

We have some world class TTS resources available on our little forum now!

cheers
Surly

For what it's worth the US forum is reading peoples PM's so I called them out on it and that's what got me banned. They say I threaten them by telling them it was against the law in the US and the forum could be shut down over it. The story they tell about Doc getting banned is only 1/2 the truth but it's up to Doc if he want to tell his side. Needless to say watch what you send people via PM's over there.

From what we are seeing in the field the stock sensors are doing well. do they fail..... yep. The nice thing seems to be that when they fail they just quit working. When this happens the bike stops operating in closed loop. They seem to work the same as far as there output goes all the time. So the failure mode seems to be working good, working slower but the same output then quit. While it's not the best thing that they are quitting it does not screw with the tune much at all which is a good thing.

I agree with Mr. Cole ...[I'd be insane if I didn't....lol] ...however I will add this; I make it a habit to test the stock 02 sensors before a V-Tune and during a regular maintenance interval.  Your TTS Data Master has an 02 sensor data stream in the data options....this makes the 02 sensor test very easy and it can be done at idle in about 1 minute or so. All you need to see is if the 02 is toggling and how active the toggling is.  The Help Manuals in the Data Master actually shows what a good sensor will graph like under the test.  I should make a step by step PDF on this procedure because I feel it is extremely important to have a look at the operation of the 02 your tuning with, I'll do this when I get time or the Swine Flu.  I also believe Harley should include a 02 sensor test in their maintenance checks, then a record could be made to see what the average life is of the stock narrow band switching device.

Doc

 

Doc / All:

Taking your advise and checking the O2 sensors for toggling/light-off:

Curious as to the rear lagging a bit behind the front.  Front started to drop in mV ~28 seconds, and the rear followed at 64 secs.  Both sensors appear to be toggling ~140 secs.  Installed new sensors ~2,000 miles ago.

Thanks for any comments.

 

 

 

 

 

It's normal to see the sensors come on line at different times....only once have I seen two (brand new) sensors come on together.....as long as you see the active toggling the sensor is switching fast and this is what you want to see.

Doc

Good example...good job

Doc:

I appreciate the reply!

Thanks,