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Lithium Battery for Touring

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  • GGUser260
    GGUser260
    1 year ago
    Hi all
    Anyone running a lithium battery instead of the AGM version? About a 7 kilo weight saving ,more upfront cost and need to have a lithium charger too...

    Looks like HD put out a newer version of the lithium battery this year-Not sure if available in Australia yet?
    New Harley-Davidson Lithium LiFe 8Ah Battery ’04-later Touring Models 66000303

    lithium battery.jpg
    new
    lithium1.jpg
    older Requires a supplied harness to fit
  • steelo
    steelo
    1 year ago
    The black one looks too small to start a bike. 
  • wadewilson
    wadewilson
    1 year ago
    Interesting that the lithium battery needs a special charger (i am assuming you are referring to a trickle charger) but can accept the same input  voltage and current as the AGM battery from the alternator.

    Curious to see how they got around this. I understand that lithium batteries have built in management and safety systems but you would think that if they can handle the variable output from an alternator and regulator they would also be able to handle the relatively stable input from a trickle charger.
  • 408
    408
    1 year ago
    Quoting wadewilson on 22 May 2022 02:43 PM

    Interesting that the lithium battery needs a special charger (i am assuming you are referring to a trickle charger) but can accept the same input  voltage and current as the AGM battery from the alternator.

    Curious to see how they got around this. I understand that lithium batteries have built in management and safety systems but you would think that if they can handle the variable output from an alternator and regulator they would also be able to handle the relatively stable input from a trickle charger.


    Check posts 6 and 7 in this thread
  • GGUser260
    GGUser260
    1 year ago
    Quoting steelo on 22 May 2022 07:48 AM

    The black one looks too small to start a bike. 

    I was due for a new battery soon (old one older than 4 years old)
    I've ordered the black one (despite Steelo's concern that it is about the size of a 50cent piece and won't start a bike)
    It's due in early July so I'll post then on how it turns out.

  • robnicko
    robnicko
    1 year ago
    Quoting wadewilson on 22 May 2022 02:43 PM

    Interesting that the lithium battery needs a special charger (i am assuming you are referring to a trickle charger) but can accept the same input  voltage and current as the AGM battery from the alternator.

    Curious to see how they got around this. I understand that lithium batteries have built in management and safety systems but you would think that if they can handle the variable output from an alternator and regulator they would also be able to handle the relatively stable input from a trickle charger.

    this is the reason why running a lithium battery in 4wd's etc as an auxillary batt require a DCDC charger to correctly charge. Otherwise they never receive a proper full charge from an alternator & dual battery isolator / solenoid and lifespan of the battery significantly shortened

  • Rking10
    Rking10
    1 year ago
    Quoting GGUser260 on 22 May 2022 06:26 AMedited: 22 May 2022 06:29 AM

    Hi all

    Anyone running a lithium battery instead of the AGM version? About a 7 kilo weight saving ,more upfront cost and need to have a lithium charger too...

    Looks like HD put out a newer version of the lithium battery this year-Not sure if available in Australia yet?
    New Harley-Davidson Lithium LiFe 8Ah Battery ’04-later Touring Models 66000303

    lithium battery.jpg
    new
    lithium1.jpg
    older Requires a supplied harness to fit
    I put one in my 2010 96 ci Road-king , goes ok, yes very light. It didn’t  like cold weather though , with the 96 cube. I put automatic decompression releases on my new motor so no starting issues at all . I’ve had it in for about 3 years now
  • wadewilson
    wadewilson
    1 year ago
    Quoting wadewilson on 22 May 2022 02:43 PM

    Interesting that the lithium battery needs a special charger (i am assuming you are referring to a trickle charger) but can accept the same input  voltage and current as the AGM battery from the alternator.

    Curious to see how they got around this. I understand that lithium batteries have built in management and safety systems but you would think that if they can handle the variable output from an alternator and regulator they would also be able to handle the relatively stable input from a trickle charger.

    Quoting robnicko on 25 May 2022 07:19 AM

    this is the reason why running a lithium battery in 4wd's etc as an auxillary batt require a DCDC charger to correctly charge. Otherwise they never receive a proper full charge from an alternator & dual battery isolator / solenoid and lifespan of the battery significantly shortened

    Rob, this is what I struggle to understand, If the life span of a lithium battery is significantly shortened when it is charged directly from the alternator and used in a dual battery system wouldn't the same happen when charged from the alternator as a starting battery? The alternator would never fully charge the battery in either set up would it?
    Not saying you are wrong or trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the difference.


  • robnicko
    robnicko
    1 year ago
    Quoting wadewilson on 22 May 2022 02:43 PM

    Interesting that the lithium battery needs a special charger (i am assuming you are referring to a trickle charger) but can accept the same input  voltage and current as the AGM battery from the alternator.

    Curious to see how they got around this. I understand that lithium batteries have built in management and safety systems but you would think that if they can handle the variable output from an alternator and regulator they would also be able to handle the relatively stable input from a trickle charger.

    Quoting robnicko on 25 May 2022 07:19 AM

    this is the reason why running a lithium battery in 4wd's etc as an auxillary batt require a DCDC charger to correctly charge. Otherwise they never receive a proper full charge from an alternator & dual battery isolator / solenoid and lifespan of the battery significantly shortened

    Quoting wadewilson on 28 May 2022 12:10 PMedited: 28 May 2022 12:14 PM

    Rob, this is what I struggle to understand, If the life span of a lithium battery is significantly shortened when it is charged directly from the alternator and used in a dual battery system wouldn't the same happen when charged from the alternator as a starting battery? The alternator would never fully charge the battery in either set up would it?
    Not saying you are wrong or trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the difference.


    hi Wade,

    Depending on the type of isolator used in a dual batt system will impact the charge going to the 2nd battery. Most 'smart' battery isolators will ensure the main batt charged fully and then trickle into the 2nd battery and this works well if both batteries are of the same chemistry.  The difference with lithium is they are 100% charged at 13.3 - 13.4V as opposed to flooded being 12.6-12.7, or in a Harleys case 12.8.
    If your main batt is flooded lead acid and 2nd batt lithium, a DCDC charger acts like a charger used at home and charges the lithium battery with the required charging algorithm that they require. On DCDC chargers there is usually a setting on them that is set to tell it what the 2nd battery type is so it charges accordingly (flooded, AGM, lithium)

    An alternator will provide power & charge a lithium battery, it just wont provide the correct charging algorithm lithium requires and this will impact its lifespan. If when a bike not being used and a trickle charger used that is lithium compatible it likely is compensating for the alternators charge rate.  

    Rob
     
  • obisteve
    obisteve
    1 year ago
    So are there any regulators made to match with a lithium battery for Harley's?
    The Cycle Electric one on my 90 Sportster allows 14.5V  @ 3000 rpm to the AGM battery currently fitted, when I've occasionally checked with a meter when troubleshooting gremlins.
    Was thinking of fitting an Antigravity one next time.
  • wadewilson
    wadewilson
    1 year ago
    Quoting robnicko on 25 May 2022 07:19 AM

    this is the reason why running a lithium battery in 4wd's etc as an auxillary batt require a DCDC charger to correctly charge. Otherwise they never receive a proper full charge from an alternator & dual battery isolator / solenoid and lifespan of the battery significantly shortened

    Quoting wadewilson on 28 May 2022 12:10 PMedited: 28 May 2022 12:14 PM

    Rob, this is what I struggle to understand, If the life span of a lithium battery is significantly shortened when it is charged directly from the alternator and used in a dual battery system wouldn't the same happen when charged from the alternator as a starting battery? The alternator would never fully charge the battery in either set up would it?
    Not saying you are wrong or trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the difference.


    Quoting robnicko on 01 Jun 2022 08:10 AMedited: 01 Jun 2022 08:12 AM

    hi Wade,

    Depending on the type of isolator used in a dual batt system will impact the charge going to the 2nd battery. Most 'smart' battery isolators will ensure the main batt charged fully and then trickle into the 2nd battery and this works well if both batteries are of the same chemistry.  The difference with lithium is they are 100% charged at 13.3 - 13.4V as opposed to flooded being 12.6-12.7, or in a Harleys case 12.8.
    If your main batt is flooded lead acid and 2nd batt lithium, a DCDC charger acts like a charger used at home and charges the lithium battery with the required charging algorithm that they require. On DCDC chargers there is usually a setting on them that is set to tell it what the 2nd battery type is so it charges accordingly (flooded, AGM, lithium)

    An alternator will provide power & charge a lithium battery, it just wont provide the correct charging algorithm lithium requires and this will impact its lifespan. If when a bike not being used and a trickle charger used that is lithium compatible it likely is compensating for the alternators charge rate.  

    Rob
     

    Rob,
    Totally understand what you are saying. We install lithium batteries into 4WDs all the time as auxiliary batteries and use BCDC chargers with a lithium profile because the alternator cannot charge them correctly.

    We have reps from various battery suppliers coming in to see us all the time telling us that they have a lithium battery that is suitable for use as a start battery. When we ask them if we can use it as an auxiliary battery they tell us it must have a BCDC for charging.

    This is the bit I am struggling to understand, if the alternator is OK to charge it as a start battery why is it not good enough to charge it as an aux battery. And as Obisteve pointed out, the charging voltage from the alternator regularly runs over the recommended charging voltage for the lithium battery. So if this is the case and the battery can handle this then it should also be able to handle the voltage from a standard battery charger that does not have a lithium profile in it?

    This is a photo of the back of my car under the drawer system. It was taken during early on in the installation so do not judge me on the way the cables are just laying around. they have not been tied into place as yet. There are two 65ah slimline lithium batteries, 50 amp BCDC charger, two air compressors with cooling fan, air suspension controller, in car digital accessory system that controls everything from my spotlights to the winch and a tyre pressure monitoring system on the car and trailer. There are also a couple of other little gadgets like a VSR to shut it all down if the BMS in the batteries fail in an under voltage situation.

    Again not saying you are wrong in fact I agree totally with what you are saying just struggle to understand how a lithium battery is charged correctly when charged directly from the alternator.

    Cheers

    WW
    under drawer set up.JPG
  • obisteve
    obisteve
    1 year ago
    https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/how-to-charge-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-batteries/
    Hi Wade, I went looking for information to brush up my knowledge (was qualified as an off grid renewable energy designer and installer, but in 2001 when we were all using flooded lead acid batteries so don't really know anything about Lithium batteries) and found this from power sonic. Helped clarify things for me.
  • 408
    408
    1 year ago
    Ok
    Go back to my post 22 May and have a look at the link

    92D6FAE1-11ED-4EAE-B812-ABAEA421A80E.jpeg
  • wadewilson
    wadewilson
    1 year ago
    Quoting 408 on 07 Jun 2022 09:19 AM

    Ok

    Go back to my post 22 May and have a look at the link

    92D6FAE1-11ED-4EAE-B812-ABAEA421A80E.jpeg
    No need to be a smart arse about it mate.  I paid you the respect of following and reading the link as supplied please show the same respect when replying to my post.

    As already stated I have read the link and it still does not explain why a battery can be charged by an alternator when used in one application but the same battery cannot be charged from the same alternator when used in another application in the same vehicle.
  • wadewilson
    wadewilson
    1 year ago
    Quoting obisteve on 07 Jun 2022 02:38 AM

    https://www.power-sonic.com/blog/how-to-charge-lithium-iron-phosphate-lifepo4-batteries/

    Hi Wade, I went looking for information to brush up my knowledge (was qualified as an off grid renewable energy designer and installer, but in 2001 when we were all using flooded lead acid batteries so don't really know anything about Lithium batteries) and found this from power sonic. Helped clarify things for me.

    Thanks  for the link Obi Steve. I have a good understanding of the chargers and different charging algorithms. Just for those of you who do not know me, I am an electrical engineer who consults for one of the larger auto electronics manufacturers in Australia. I have worked for companies such as BMW on various R&D projects from charging through to fuel injection systems. Even with this background I cannot get anyone to successfully explain the charging of a lithium battery from an alternator.
  • 408
    408
    1 year ago
    Quoting 408 on 07 Jun 2022 09:19 AM

    Ok

    Go back to my post 22 May and have a look at the link

    92D6FAE1-11ED-4EAE-B812-ABAEA421A80E.jpeg
    Quoting wadewilson on 07 Jun 2022 10:05 AMedited: 07 Jun 2022 10:13 AM

    No need to be a smart arse about it mate.  I paid you the respect of following and reading the link as supplied please show the same respect when replying to my post.

    As already stated I have read the link and it still does not explain why a battery can be charged by an alternator when used in one application but the same battery cannot be charged from the same alternator when used in another application in the same vehicle.

    I believe the link l provided answered the question you posed at that time although you were switching to auto application ? You had not introduced dual battery charging systems in 4wd vehicles at that time.
    Obisteve has not acknowledged an answer to his question which l believe is also covered in the link l posted. He followed you down your rabbithole.
  • paulybronco
    paulybronco
    1 year ago
    Quoting 408 on 07 Jun 2022 09:19 AM

    Ok

    Go back to my post 22 May and have a look at the link

    92D6FAE1-11ED-4EAE-B812-ABAEA421A80E.jpeg
    Quoting wadewilson on 07 Jun 2022 10:05 AMedited: 07 Jun 2022 10:13 AM

    No need to be a smart arse about it mate.  I paid you the respect of following and reading the link as supplied please show the same respect when replying to my post.

    As already stated I have read the link and it still does not explain why a battery can be charged by an alternator when used in one application but the same battery cannot be charged from the same alternator when used in another application in the same vehicle.

    Quoting 408 on 07 Jun 2022 11:04 AMedited: 07 Jun 2022 10:19 PM

    I believe the link l provided answered the question you posed at that time although you were switching to auto application ? You had not introduced dual battery charging systems in 4wd vehicles at that time.

    Obisteve has not acknowledged an answer to his question which l believe is also covered in the link l posted. He followed you down your rabbithole.

    rabbithole.   Is two words.....    
  • steelo
    steelo
    1 year ago
    Asshole is only one. It’s an easy mistake pb..
  • 408
    408
    1 year ago
    Quoting wadewilson on 07 Jun 2022 10:05 AMedited: 07 Jun 2022 10:13 AM

    No need to be a smart arse about it mate.  I paid you the respect of following and reading the link as supplied please show the same respect when replying to my post.

    As already stated I have read the link and it still does not explain why a battery can be charged by an alternator when used in one application but the same battery cannot be charged from the same alternator when used in another application in the same vehicle.

    Quoting 408 on 07 Jun 2022 11:04 AMedited: 07 Jun 2022 10:19 PM

    I believe the link l provided answered the question you posed at that time although you were switching to auto application ? You had not introduced dual battery charging systems in 4wd vehicles at that time.

    Obisteve has not acknowledged an answer to his question which l believe is also covered in the link l posted. He followed you down your rabbithole.

    Quoting paulybronco on 08 Jun 2022 09:04 AM

    rabbithole.   Is two words.....    

    various spellings 
    rabbithole 
    rabbit hole
    rabbit-hole 
    Check your dictionary 
    While you’re there, check the definition for fukwit 
    Do it while you’re looking in the mirror
  • steelo
    steelo
    1 year ago
    Not directed at anyone. Just had it in my gallery. 
    mirror_1.jpg
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