2009 Big Twin using Transmission Oil

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2009 Big Twin using Transmission Oil

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WildJim
3 years ago

Kia Ora Tato.

I have 2009 FLHP, 103c Big Twin that is using Transmission Oil.
The problem has existed since I got the bike some 13,000 miles ago.
After many different oil changes and some very expensive transmission oils I have ruled out leaking into the Primary.

The Bike has a 130kg sidecar attached and I think that it has a lot to do with my problem.

The Bike is under constant load, I have recently completed a change before going on a 800 mile trip.
Now I will admit to pushing the bike hard on the return trip.
I tend to sit in fifth gear, with a tail wind I can hold 70 miles in sixth otherwise the bike labor's under the load.
I was pushing to 80 mile chasing these riders on good a good highway and a decent headwind that was buffeting the sidecar like a sail but that's only around 3500rpm in fifth, and well the bike just gets too hard to manage above that with the sidecar... so generally we cruse.

But after this 800 mile trip the oil did not register on the dip stick, I estimate that to be a lost of around 300-400ml.

Between this change and the previous change I would have topped up the trans with at least another liter of oil.... it's not on the ground, and it's not in the primary.

The problem hasn't been solved by expensive product either.
So.... is the oil boiling away?
Am I missing something??

There is good talk about REDLINE HEAVY SHOCKPROOF GEAR...
but is this just another expensive oil that my bike will eat??

Any help welcomed.

Krash Kinkade
3 years ago

Quoting WildJim on 23 Jan 2021 09:29 PMedited: 24 Jan 2021 12:17 AM
Kia Ora Tato.

I have 2009 FLHP, 103c Big Twin that is using Transmission Oil.
The problem has existed since I got the bike some 13,000 miles ago.
After many different oil changes and some very expensive transmission oils I have ruled out leaking into the Primary.

The Bike has a 130kg sidecar attached and I think that it has a lot to do with my problem.

The Bike is under constant load, I have recently completed a change before going on a 800 mile trip.
Now I will admit to pushing the bike hard on the return trip.
I tend to sit in fifth gear, with a tail wind I can hold 70 miles in sixth otherwise the bike labor's under the load.
I was pushing to 80 mile chasing these riders on good a good highway and a decent headwind that was buffeting the sidecar like a sail but that's only around 3500rpm in fifth, and well the bike just gets too hard to manage above that with the sidecar... so generally we cruse.

But after this 800 mile trip the oil did not register on the dip stick, I estimate that to be a lost of around 300-400ml.

Between this change and the previous change I would have topped up the trans with at least another liter of oil.... it's not on the ground, and it's not in the primary.

The problem hasn't been solved by expensive product either.
So.... is the oil boiling away?
Am I missing something??

There is good talk about REDLINE HEAVY SHOCKPROOF GEAR...
but is this just another expensive oil that my bike will eat??

Any help welcomed.

WildJim, that Redline Heavy Shockproof gear box oil , the best I've used!! I just put it in & never change it.( on big twin , can't use on Sportsters )

The other problem you have got, very strange.
you see Big Twins, have a gear box that uses it's own oil, it can leak out to the ground, or if over filled it can blow out through the small breather hole in top of gear box. or it can leak into primary via main seal . I have never ever had a problem like that.
what I would do, is buy a bottle of Redline heavy shockproof gear oil, take your bike for a good ride to warm up properly ( gear box oil takes a while to warm up ) then , when get home put a dish or something to drain your gear box oil into, take drain plug out & filler cap out and leave it over night ( if you can ) to drain. put thread tape on drain plug & put it back in . then put 900 of heavy shockproof Redline gear oil in ( don't over fill ) put dip stick cap back in then clean the whole gear box with degreaser. good luck. that gear oil makes gear shifting a lot smoother, it is very thick, made for Nitro burners that put much higher shock loads, than you will put on your Bike with side car.

Baloffski
3 years ago

Miles, we talking USA ?
Red Line Shock proof for me any day..
That shit works.

DocGreen
3 years ago

Hey mate, what's your engine oil level doing?
The gearbox oil isn't disappearing. May have a faulty/leaking primary side crank seal?
Good luck

DocGreen

WildJim
3 years ago

Miles.... yeah the speedo is in miles because it's US export.... as an FLHP, Road Kind Police, it did a tour of duty in the states before it was exported.

Sure Red Line has a good rep but so do others, I'm using trans oil, I've tried bellray, spectro, formula+ and others, with no change.... the question is how??
Is the Trans getting so hot that the the Oil is Boiling?

WildJim
3 years ago

Quoting DocGreen on 23 Jan 2021 11:15 PM
Hey mate, what's your engine oil level doing?
The gearbox oil isn't disappearing. May have a faulty/leaking primary side crank seal?
Good luck

DocGreen

Thanks.
Engine oil always looks fine when I check it.
I replaced the primary side crank seal when I replaced the Alternator, along with the Clutch Bearing, inner clutch hub and upgraded to a screaming eagle compensator.
It was hoping that would be the problem, and I would assume if the primary seal was the problem that the oil would then be in the primary, Yes? and if so its not..... thousand of miles and another liter of gear oil used, should show up in the volume removed from the Primary at oil change, but it never does.

I'll add it to the list of possibilities, but I think I have already ruled that out.

WildJim
3 years ago

Thats a good thought, but, not very practical.
I added some photos to show.... I call him Lurch and he is as wide as a Ford Ranger..... around 2.3m wide (from the wheel guard to the brake lever), just fits past that average single garage door, they are 2.4m wide
The bike will never be a solo again, it just wouldn't ride right.
The frame has had a lot of different stress applied by the 130Kg that is hanging off the side like a sale that it was never designed for.
That is aside from the fact that it would be a son of a ....... to get back on and aligned for the road again.

Not a test I want to rush into just yet.

Chester, rick k and Ratbob like this post

WildJim
3 years ago

Quoting WildJim on 23 Jan 2021 09:29 PMedited: 24 Jan 2021 12:17 AM
Kia Ora Tato.

I have 2009 FLHP, 103c Big Twin that is using Transmission Oil.
The problem has existed since I got the bike some 13,000 miles ago.
After many different oil changes and some very expensive transmission oils I have ruled out leaking into the Primary.

The Bike has a 130kg sidecar attached and I think that it has a lot to do with my problem.

The Bike is under constant load, I have recently completed a change before going on a 800 mile trip.
Now I will admit to pushing the bike hard on the return trip.
I tend to sit in fifth gear, with a tail wind I can hold 70 miles in sixth otherwise the bike labor's under the load.
I was pushing to 80 mile chasing these riders on good a good highway and a decent headwind that was buffeting the sidecar like a sail but that's only around 3500rpm in fifth, and well the bike just gets too hard to manage above that with the sidecar... so generally we cruse.

But after this 800 mile trip the oil did not register on the dip stick, I estimate that to be a lost of around 300-400ml.

Between this change and the previous change I would have topped up the trans with at least another liter of oil.... it's not on the ground, and it's not in the primary.

The problem hasn't been solved by expensive product either.
So.... is the oil boiling away?
Am I missing something??

There is good talk about REDLINE HEAVY SHOCKPROOF GEAR...
but is this just another expensive oil that my bike will eat??

Any help welcomed.

Quoting Krash Kinkade on 23 Jan 2021 10:09 PMedited: 23 Jan 2021 10:12 PM
WildJim, that Redline Heavy Shockproof gear box oil , the best I've used!! I just put it in & never change it.( on big twin , can't use on Sportsters )

The other problem you have got, very strange.
you see Big Twins, have a gear box that uses it's own oil, it can leak out to the ground, or if over filled it can blow out through the small breather hole in top of gear box. or it can leak into primary via main seal . I have never ever had a problem like that.
what I would do, is buy a bottle of Redline heavy shockproof gear oil, take your bike for a good ride to warm up properly ( gear box oil takes a while to warm up ) then , when get home put a dish or something to drain your gear box oil into, take drain plug out & filler cap out and leave it over night ( if you can ) to drain. put thread tape on drain plug & put it back in . then put 900 of heavy shockproof Redline gear oil in ( don't over fill ) put dip stick cap back in then clean the whole gear box with degreaser. good luck. that gear oil makes gear shifting a lot smoother, it is very thick, made for Nitro burners that put much higher shock loads, than you will put on your Bike with side car.

Thanks Krash.
I was aware that it was separate oil chamber and of the breather.
I got the bike in 2018 and have been diagnosing this problem since.
I never seen any oil under the bike, not once. I keep him pretty clean and have checked the breathers before now, and again, I just given him a wash and the engine is clean and clear of any obvious oil or tell tale oil stains.

And yep, this Redline seems to be the next test, but I got to ask this question.

It has me and the local Harley shop mechanic questioning the problem.
His last solution was to put a breather on the primary, similar to the fix for the M8 I think, but I cant see the point if I can't prove beyond doubt that the oil has transferred to the primary.

Cheers

WildJim
3 years ago

lol....
I do that now on the big trips to nowhere.

WildJim
3 years ago

I couldn't tell you with an actual figure, and i don't even know if it can boil.
I have a laser thermometer that could give a surface reading but I can't think how I could get a temp without installing a probe of some kind.
Farken hot is the best I can say.
As a reference the 6 speed clutch cover is as hot as the heads, and of course the exhaust headers run past there.

The bike does run hot, but on my recent trip the days I rode were cooler with temps ranging from 15-20 degrees as I crossed the country, that was a 600km run in the day, around 8hrs or riding and 1hr gas and smoke breaks.
I used three tanks of gas each way which is somewhere between 55 and 60 liters one way, so my 1200km trip used somewhere between 110 and 120 liters, and with me the dog on board I estimate another 100ish Kgs on top of the sidecar weight.
So that's a 230Kg load that the bike is dragging around every corner.

The bike will drag around a lot more than that too, I took my 65Kg daughter the dog and everything we needed for camping, best estimate at that time was close to 200Kg just in the sidecar with tents, food, water and everything else.
A quick telly and thats over 400kg that the bike would have hauled on that trip...... which burnt the stock clutch, not completely but it did required adjusting mid trip...... I since installed a Barnett clutch pack and heavy clutch plate.

WildJim
3 years ago

You on to it Rick.
The bike is a pig to push around but I'm a small fulla these days, but it rolls find, there's no additional drag other than the sidecar it's self and I just completed replacing the wheel bearings and brake pads on the car, and it's running smooth.
The Sidecar is a sail on the road and I suspect that it is the primary reason for the shit economy.
At the same time I suspect that the bike needs some professional tuning but one can also consider it this way.
How many 200KG + blokes that can get a leg over a bike do you know that ride HD's and get good mileage. :)

brucefxdl
3 years ago

i would have expected some engine oil consumption with a continuously loaded engine rather than trans oil.i would imagine for oil loss in a small trans due to heat it would have to get damm hot, and possibly leading to component failure due to break down of the oil at that heat and probably expect some oil mist from the trans breather.does the oil smell cooked or change color ?.

rick k likes this post

Krash Kinkade
3 years ago

Quoting Baloffski on 23 Jan 2021 10:27 PM
Miles, we talking USA ?
Red Line Shock proof for me any day..
That shit works.

Baloffski, I still remember Miles, think was changed to KM's in 1970's. for a long time I still would convert KM back to Miles & Lt's back to Gal, for economy check, & Harley's not Metric ( measure in Cubic Inch not metric ) we still have 12 months & 12 / 24 hours .

Old Fatty likes this post

beaglebasher
3 years ago

Stop confusing things rick and Krash and Balooffski !
Where is the fukin gear oil going?
When I first bought my bike I had an oil leak from the top of the gearbox. I didnt realise the leak was there until I got the bike home from Newcastle
( 4 hour trip) and parked it in the shed. When I drained it the next day only a dribble came out, less than 100 mls. From memory there should be around 750 mls?
I was worried I might have caused some damage but I must have caught it just in time cos I have done 50 k since with no issues.
When I drop the gear oil I inspect the magnetic plug and all is good so far.
I reckon that mutt you take in the side car must be drinking the oil out of the gearbox. That is the only rational explanation.
Have you checked his turds? If they have a glossy sheen to them he is the culprit.

Krash Kinkade
3 years ago

Quoting beaglebasher on 25 Jan 2021 08:10 AMedited: 25 Jan 2021 08:14 AM
Stop confusing things rick and Krash and Balooffski !
Where is the fukin gear oil going?
When I first bought my bike I had an oil leak from the top of the gearbox. I didnt realise the leak was there until I got the bike home from Newcastle
( 4 hour trip) and parked it in the shed. When I drained it the next day only a dribble came out, less than 100 mls. From memory there should be around 750 mls?
I was worried I might have caused some damage but I must have caught it just in time cos I have done 50 k since with no issues.
When I drop the gear oil I inspect the magnetic plug and all is good so far.
I reckon that mutt you take in the side car must be drinking the oil out of the gearbox. That is the only rational explanation.
Have you checked his turds? If they have a glossy sheen to them he is the culprit.

I must have been lucky?
BB I think your leaking from top & a dribble coming out strange, must have came out breather hole at top? If you use Redline Heavy Shockproof , you will be right as its as thick as cold honey!!

beaglebasher
3 years ago

Quoting beaglebasher on 25 Jan 2021 08:10 AMedited: 25 Jan 2021 08:14 AM
Stop confusing things rick and Krash and Balooffski !
Where is the fukin gear oil going?
When I first bought my bike I had an oil leak from the top of the gearbox. I didnt realise the leak was there until I got the bike home from Newcastle
( 4 hour trip) and parked it in the shed. When I drained it the next day only a dribble came out, less than 100 mls. From memory there should be around 750 mls?
I was worried I might have caused some damage but I must have caught it just in time cos I have done 50 k since with no issues.
When I drop the gear oil I inspect the magnetic plug and all is good so far.
I reckon that mutt you take in the side car must be drinking the oil out of the gearbox. That is the only rational explanation.
Have you checked his turds? If they have a glossy sheen to them he is the culprit.

Quoting Krash Kinkade on 25 Jan 2021 08:38 AM
I must have been lucky?
BB I think your leaking from top & a dribble coming out strange, must have came out breather hole at top? If you use Redline Heavy Shockproof , you will be right as its as thick as cold honey!!

When I checked it out the day after I bought the bike I traced it to the square selector box on the top of the gearbox.
It was my first experience on working on a Harley so I thought I might as well start learning about them.
It turned out the gasket was not fitted properly, I could see it was sticking out the side of where it should have been.
Because that part of the gearbox only gets splashed with oil gravity was in my favour.
Dont know if that has got anything to do with Big Jims issues but.
You still here Wild Jim?

steelo
3 years ago

You've certainly got a discussion going WJ. Tell us a bit more about yourself. I see in your profile, you're from NZ.

WildJim
3 years ago

Quoting brucefxdl on 24 Jan 2021 04:49 AMedited: 24 Jan 2021 04:50 AM
i would have expected some engine oil consumption with a continuously loaded engine rather than trans oil.i would imagine for oil loss in a small trans due to heat it would have to get damm hot, and possibly leading to component failure due to break down of the oil at that heat and probably expect some oil mist from the trans breather.does the oil smell cooked or change color ?.

Kia Ora.
The oil breather is dry and I have put in 1-200ml over when heading on long trips but still no sign of oil.
As to the colour of the Trans oil I change it frequently, usually to confirm volume and or because theirs a new oil to try, however.
The oil will be dirty, but there always seems to be colour.... but don't forget that I'm always adding oil so I don't think it gets a chance to loose it color. Put it this way, I kept the quart bottle that I extracted to reuse if caught in a bind, it was looking that good.
No burnt oder that I have smelt.

It's hard labour that show the oil loss, short easy rides there is no significant loss.

WildJim
3 years ago

Ok Let talk Sidecars for a moment.
Firstly most aren't as big as Lurch and aren't made to carry 4 small arses.
Just the weight of the sidecar alone is one thing but then consider the wind resistance that the sidecar generates.
It's a sail attached to the side of the bike.
Now add the push and pull the sidecar puts on the bike frame.
Because the sidecar generates so much left drag on the bike and, because the drive wheel is on the right, the sidecar "toes" into the bike, effectively pushing it to the right, the amount of toe in depends on the rig.
The bike is setup to lean to the right by up to 3 degrees.
So everything is set to, again, effectively, push the bike to the right.
Now add the Drive wheel out on the right and it want's to drive the bike around the sidecar to the left..... it's the only thing pushing left.
Under acceleration I still have to steer the bike to the right.

Cornering:
Too much acceleration in a right and the bike will push out to the left, hit a bump in the road during a right hand corner and the whole front end is shocked. hitting a right hand corner at the right speed and maintaining constant acceleration is key and acceleration out of the corner only once you have excited the apex.
Left hand corners are just as complex.
You must maintain acceleration in the corner, failure to do so will "Lurch" the bike to the Right, it's the drive wheel again, as the deceleration happens the drag from the rear wheel grips and pulls the bike with it.
The other thing with a Left hand corner is that the bike is using the outer two wheels in a more normal bike manner and you can crack the throttle and get the drive wheel to, quite literally in Lurch, flick you around the corner. Do it well enough with a smaller car and you can,as they say, fly the car!

Most riders like to trust whats under them and I'm no exception, and I complete 99% of the mechanical work myself.
For example, every tire change includes bearings, regardless of condition, that's the 1%.
The Sidecar wheel is also under interesting strain given the toe in is quite pronounced. to this end the hub tends to loosen after a while so I check it before and after rides, especially if there has been a lot of cornering, and there are a lot of winding roads in my back yard.
So I tried to replace the sidecar bearings and found the outside one was not too bad, luck cause they don't make that size or type anymore and I was quoted $400 for a complete bearing. Looks like I'll be re-engineering that some time soon.

Still haven't got a new plan to tackle this oil "usage" yet.

Jim.

beaglebasher
3 years ago

Quoting brucefxdl on 24 Jan 2021 04:49 AMedited: 24 Jan 2021 04:50 AM
i would have expected some engine oil consumption with a continuously loaded engine rather than trans oil.i would imagine for oil loss in a small trans due to heat it would have to get damm hot, and possibly leading to component failure due to break down of the oil at that heat and probably expect some oil mist from the trans breather.does the oil smell cooked or change color ?.

Quoting WildJim on 27 Jan 2021 04:16 AM
Kia Ora.
The oil breather is dry and I have put in 1-200ml over when heading on long trips but still no sign of oil.
As to the colour of the Trans oil I change it frequently, usually to confirm volume and or because theirs a new oil to try, however.
The oil will be dirty, but there always seems to be colour.... but don't forget that I'm always adding oil so I don't think it gets a chance to loose it color. Put it this way, I kept the quart bottle that I extracted to reuse if caught in a bind, it was looking that good.
No burnt oder that I have smelt.

It's hard labour that show the oil loss, short easy rides there is no significant loss.

You sure youre not overfilling the gearbox? You say you change the oil regularly, what is the least amount that you have saw run out of it? I had an oil leak one time and only a dribble came out, has that happened to you?
The dipstick in my gearbox can be hard to read cos its that plastic chrome stuff and you have to be extra vigilant to get an accurate reading.
How do you check the dipstick? Screw in or just touch the thread on the gearbox? I just touch it on the gearbox.
I dont know how old you are but my eyes arent as good as they used to be. Maybe get somebody with good eyes to have a look.
Oil doesnt just boil away unless its red hot and then it stinks. Who fitted the side car? They didnt bolt it directly to the gearbox?

Topics

1/2

2009 Big Twin using Transmission Oil

2009 Big Twin using Transmission Oil

WildJim

Krash Kinkade

Baloffski

DocGreen

WildJim

WildJim

WildJim

WildJim

WildJim

WildJim

WildJim

brucefxdl

Krash Kinkade

beaglebasher

Krash Kinkade

beaglebasher

steelo

WildJim

WildJim

beaglebasher